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Wonderwing can be grabbed if timed right like OoS, but also watch how he uses it to recover or as a combo breaker. |
Wonderwing can be grabbed if timed right like OoS, but also watch how he uses it to recover or as a combo breaker; if he does it predictably as a horizontal recovery, can grab him with an off stage SPR followed by an aerial to kill or gimp. When shielding, you can also do a turnaround punish like some other enemy burst options; turnaround f-smash, skewer if lucky (shorthop turnaround skewer OoS for better frame advantage & positioning), and u-tilt works too with how unsafe it is on shield. Overall, watch out for him using Wonderwing when he’s in any form of disadvantage, a neutral mixup, and even advantage like when he puts you in a tech chase or if you miss tech. |
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Banjo d-throw buries like K Rool's, but for not as long, so can escape quick. Banjo knows this though, so he may position to attack in the air, or u-smash if you wait too long. Mix up your timing, |
Banjo d-throw buries like K Rool's, but for not as long, so can escape quick. Banjo knows this though, so he may position to attack in the air, or u-smash if you wait too long. Mix up your timing, though mashing fast followed by airdodge can work sometimes, especially if at high %. |
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While Banjo can edgeguard with fair (which is surprisingly safe on shield compared to his other aerials), he gets more out of ledgetrapping with his projectiles which can also gimp. With a lingering grenade, time your ledge getup; not too early or too late. If he does a fullhop grenade, can getup and shield it, then attack from below if quick enough. If you're both on stage and he does a fullhop grenade, can fullhop nair/fair or shorthop uair his blindspot. |
While Banjo can edgeguard with fair (which is surprisingly safe on shield compared to his other aerials), he gets more out of ledgetrapping with his projectiles which can also gimp. With a lingering grenade, time your ledge getup; not too early or too late. If he does a fullhop grenade, can getup and shield it, then attack from below if quick enough. If you're both on stage and he does a fullhop grenade, can fullhop nair/fair or shorthop uair his blindspot. |
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When Kazooie uses eggs to camp you out, make a plan of approach if Banjo's in the lead, whether in the air or from the ground. Eggs don't do much damage on their own, so remain calm while shielding or timing your approach, but still space well with your attacks. Flickshot Plasma may work to counter-camp if you have enough space, but remember he has Wonderwing to get through your wall. If you're aligned with Banjo while he's in Breegull Blaster mode, it can be possible to skewer him. |
When Kazooie uses eggs to camp you out, make a plan of approach if Banjo's in the lead, whether in the air or from the ground. Eggs don't do much damage on their own, so remain calm while shielding or timing your approach, but still space well with your attacks. Flickshot Plasma may work to counter-camp if you have enough space, but remember he has Wonderwing to get through your wall. If you're horizontally aligned with Banjo while he's in Breegull Blaster mode, it can be possible to skewer him. |
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While is likely to beat our dair, Banjo’s uair is the weakest of his aerials, making it easier to land from above, especially on platform stages. If you have the opportunity to recover this way, do so to avoid his ledgetrapping. |
While is likely to beat our dair, Banjo’s uair is the weakest of his aerials, making it easier to land from above, especially on platform stages. If you have the opportunity to recover this way, do so to avoid his ledgetrapping. Nair can be better for dealing with his uair than dair though still, with the hitbox starting below and coming out a little faster. |
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Exploit his recovery. His up B is like a mix of Charizard and Sonic's; can triple jump, use a spring, and uses side B to recover. Going off the edge may be risky if he recovers high with side B, so can wait to Plasma camp him or catch his landing, and if he’s at a lower altitude when using side B to recover, can catch him with SPR if timed right. If he uses up B on stage, try to anti-air him up high or wait to catch his landing. When he recovers low, he's more vulnerable to aerials, spikes, or gimps. |
Exploit his recovery. His up B is like a mix of Charizard and Sonic's; can triple jump, use a spring, and uses side B to recover. Going off the edge may be risky if he recovers high with side B, so can wait to Plasma camp him or catch his landing, and if he’s at a lower altitude when using side B to recover, can catch him with SPR if timed right. If he uses up B on stage, try to anti-air him up high or wait to catch his landing. When he recovers low, he's more vulnerable to aerials, spikes, or gimps. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Banjo’s dair hits us under a platform that he lands on with it, so be ready to shield underneath. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), his gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher/d-tilt/smashes/landing dair/ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his 8 hit u-smash when shielded is punished by our f/d-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. |
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Banjo multihits- u-smash (8 hits), nair (8 hits) |
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Besides fair which was mentioned as a safe on shield aerial, all his other landing aerials we can punish with our OoS aerials/shield grab for the most part (his nair is 8 hits), including u-smash OoS if he's still above you. Banjo's neutral B is negative enough on shield for you to forward nair OoS as an approach if that's what it takes to get to him. His grenades are even less safe on shield. |
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Banjo up smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher, d-tilt, smashes, landing dair, and ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash, d-smash, or shorthop skewer OoS. |
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Besides fair which was mentioned as a safe on shield aerial, all his other landing aerials we can punish with our OoS aerials or shield grab for the most part, including u-smash OoS if he's still above you. A singular egg from Banjo's neutral B is negative enough on shield for you to forward nair OoS as an approach if that's what it takes to get to him. His grenade eggs are similarly less safe on shield; during point-blank that is. They have to be out of our burst range for their projectiles to be + on shield. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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At |
At 0%, d-throw > fair isn't true, but d-throw > up angle f-tilt will always be. If d-throw is unstaled, pummeling before throwing will make the fair true. With max staling, d-throw will always combo into fair if the Bayonetta is at 7% minimum. D-tilt > skewer at 0 to early % can be a nice mixup for those that want to airdodge for bat within. |
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For edgeguarding them, if they have a jump then they have 2 up B's to spend. If they end up right below ledge, there's not much you can do without being risky but if they're diagonal and below when they do the 1st up B, then you can fullhop and fair them as they're doing jump > 2nd up B to position themselves for the ABK to ledge. Fair in general disrupts their recovery well if you hit her between the gaps, and then you can plasma for more damage. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Bayo's Heel Slide, ABK, and Witch Twist require about 2 SDI inputs. Heel Slide has 8 to 10 hitlag frames, ABK has 12 to 13 hitlag frames, and Witch Twist has 3 to 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Bayo's f-tilt and f-air have up to three hits like Sora's. |
Bayo's f-tilt and f-air have up to three hits like Sora's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Bayo can't do the followup kick from heel slide if the 1st hit is on your shield, making it -25/-26 by default. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash or |
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash, shorthop skewer, or wing blitz forward punishable with shield pushback), but remember to shield all three hits of her f-tilt. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset; that said, can catch her landing from up B usage if you act quick enough. |
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The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33). |
The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33). |
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* Although Ultimate Frame Data says her up B is +0 on shield, it doesn't account for the other parts of the move whiffing on the way up which makes it closer from -13 to -17 depending on character height. Ridley can do u-smash and uair OoS against it. |
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Gentlemen jab/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 2/3, smashes, dair, point-blank neutral B, heel slide (first part), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished should she be at kill confirm %. If she whiffs a down B counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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Gentlemen jab/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 2/3, smashes, dair, point-blank neutral B, side B (heel slide), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished should she be at kill confirm %. If she whiffs a down B counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (85-90%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (85-90%) |
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Major credit to smub, Sapphire, and Zant on the SDI details |
Major credit to smub, Sapphire, and Zant on the SDI details & some of the neutral stuff, and to Paco on our advantage state. |
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His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits. |
His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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His dash attack, f-smash, d-smash, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. The air version of his down B takes 31 frames to come out. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Will mostly use d-tilt and then read what Jr does after, or just fair or nair after the d-tilt. We can also somewhat start advantage by d-throw which leads to many things; fair, f-tilt, dash cancel u-tilt, and bair. I wouldn't try to go for d-throw nair regrabs in this matchup personally, but at mid %, d-throw nair still works. |
Will mostly use d-tilt and then read what Jr does after, or just fair or nair after the d-tilt. We can also somewhat start advantage by d-throw which leads to many things; fair, f-tilt, dash cancel u-tilt, and bair. I wouldn't try to go for d-throw nair regrabs in this matchup personally, but at mid %, d-throw nair still works. |
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Jr will mix up their disadvantage with mechakoopa, kart dash, or some aerials. Mechakoopa is like a moving Snake grenade, and Jr can break our advantage by holding it and get us hit and then get something off of that, so be wary with it |
Jr will mix up their disadvantage with mechakoopa, kart dash, or some aerials. Mechakoopa is like a moving Snake grenade, and Jr can break our advantage by holding it and get us hit and then get something off of that, so be wary with it. |
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We also still have good anti-airs, like u-tilt which catches some jump-ins and aggressive out of juggle options like Jr dair or nair. With d-tilt we can also still read Jr or follow him from the one u-tilt into maybe another u-tilt at low %, or uair, nair, or fair depending on position. |
We also still have good anti-airs, like u-tilt which catches some jump-ins and aggressive out of juggle options like Jr dair or nair. With d-tilt we can also still read Jr or follow him from the one u-tilt into maybe another u-tilt at low %, or uair, nair, or fair depending on position. |
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Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits) |
Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits) |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly. |
If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly. |
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For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary. |
For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary. |
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Byleth can also use their up B as you're up high. Try to airdodge or DI away after the initial hit to avoid a followup. Their neutral B arrow is good at sniping off stage but thankfully, it only shoots at two different points of the animation when it glows yellow or blue, but still something to watch out for, though |
Byleth can also use their up B as you're up high. Try to airdodge or DI away after the initial hit to avoid a followup. Their neutral B arrow is good at sniping off stage but thankfully, it only shoots at two different points of the animation when it glows yellow or blue, but still something to watch out for, though we can use plasma against them more easily than they can spam that. |
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Can also use plasma to gimp them off stage before they get their tether recovery out, try an off stage or CLS (crouch ledge slip) aerial before they pull up (though don't get up B grabbed), or if they're slightly above ledge when they begin to tether to it off stage, can do a quick SPR and drag them all the way down, followed by a jump release. They have a tough time landing against us too like we do against them. Other than that, focus more on corner pressure than trying to ledgetrap them. The risk/reward isn't there to engage with their side B and other ledge stalls like fair. |
Can also use plasma to gimp them off stage before they get their tether recovery out, try an off stage or CLS (crouch ledge slip) aerial before they pull up (though don't get up B grabbed), or if they're slightly above ledge when they begin to tether to it off stage, can do a quick SPR and drag them all the way down, followed by a jump release. They have a tough time landing against us too like we do against them. Other than that, focus more on corner pressure than trying to ledgetrap them. The risk/reward isn't there to engage with their side B and other ledge stalls like fair. |
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When being edgeguarded, their dair can dunk us, so delay a bit when recovering low. When recovering mid, watch out for their fair & bair tipper, nair potentially gimping, and of course their up B if you try to recover high. Mix it up. When on ledge, some moves like their f-smash can't hit us, but their d-smash can (just getup attack versus that), so keep in mind when planking. Is still risky to plank against non-shoto characters though, so just use the fact that Byleth's gotta space their moves more precisely to hit you, so that you can get off ledge. |
When being edgeguarded, their dair can dunk us, so delay a bit when recovering low; might also be possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair you, since our uair comes out faster frame wise, but trading is not in our favor here. When recovering mid, watch out for their fair & bair tipper, nair potentially gimping, and of course their up B if you try to recover high. Mix it up. When on ledge, some moves like their f-smash can't hit us, but their d-smash can (just getup attack versus that), so keep in mind when planking. Is still risky to plank against non-shoto characters though, so just use the fact that Byleth's gotta space their moves more precisely to hit you, so that you can get off ledge. |
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If you do an SPR release for an aerial followup, beware of their side B as a get-off-me move, and up B grapple which will spike you. If you catch them with an SPR during a tech chase or something, may be better to just let it drag them off. |
If you do an SPR release for an aerial followup, beware of their side B as a get-off-me move, and up B grapple which will spike you. If you catch them with an SPR during a tech chase or something, may be better to just let it drag them off. |
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And if they want approach you while you plasma, they will have to jump. They are very slow, so you put them in a pretty bad position as I’ve learned, making your anti-airs more dangerous. |
And if they want approach you while you plasma, they will have to jump. They are very slow, so you put them in a pretty bad position as I’ve learned, making your anti-airs more dangerous. |
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You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash and turnaround d-tilt also applies. |
You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash back and turnaround d-tilt also applies. |
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And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard Byleth because of their bad air speed. It just kind of creates a wall that they can't get through; if you hit them far enough of course. |
And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard Byleth because of their bad air speed. It just kind of creates a wall that they can't get through; if you hit them far enough of course. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Their f-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab ( |
In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab (33 frames of end lag) to approach. He may jab after you shield an aerial, so wait for that and punish. |
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His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, |
His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, though be forward and quick with said option since the move bounces off of shield but has enough end lag), anti-air like up angle f-tilt if they do the aerial version, or step/fullhop back and see if they panic spot dodge or roll back, then see what you can do. If you're at somewhere high % when hit by it and launched higher, can also nair as a get-off-me before he manages to do an aerial followup. |
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Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage. |
Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage. |
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With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right. |
With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right. |
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For Falcon's risk/reward, don't forget that as soon as you get to around 30%, getting grabbed is better than getting hit by an aerial landing. Mid range at mid %, d-tilts are a bad idea because it lets him jump above you. If you're not sure of an interaction, shield |
For Falcon's risk/reward, don't forget that as soon as you get to around 30%, getting grabbed is better than getting hit by an aerial landing. Mid range at mid %, d-tilts are a bad idea because it lets him jump above you. If you're not sure of an interaction, shield except at very high %. Can fullhop nair to counteract his attempted landing aerials, especially when Ridley's cornered near ledge which can be more reliable than f-tilt or d-tilt when cornered. |
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When recovering off stage, even from a dash attack that sends you off at bit at low %, don't airdodge or swing with nair too early or he'll get you with something like dair. |
When recovering off stage, even from a dash attack that sends you off at bit at low %, don't airdodge or swing with nair too early or he'll get you with something like dair. |
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Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs. |
Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs. |
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Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms |
Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms, so still shield it there. |
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Falcon's nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, both of which have 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
Falcon's nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, both of which have 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His f-smash, neutral B, and down B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2. |
U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2. |
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The 4th hit of Chrom's side B requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid. |
Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid. |
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Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary. |
Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary. |
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His smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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===== Neutral ===== |
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With Cloud's super safe aerials on shield, wait to try and punish what he does after rather than retaliate with an OoS attack, except for nair OoS against his fair if he mistimes it. His dash attack and crossup d-tilt we also punish OoS, and his unrewarding grab game balances out the cheesiness of his safe aerials on shield. Plasma works for counter-zoning his blade beam or to beat him stalling off stage with it as long as you keep your distance, but his blue blade beam goes through plasma. That said, if they have Limit off stage, stuff out their double jump and airdodge so they're forced to use Limit up B, or Limit neutral B to cover themselves if they're already up high. |
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Cloud relies on the use of falling aerials, empty hops, and movement to condition responses. He'll use his safe bair and fair to space and whiff punish while peppering in dash attacks or Side B's to catch jumps or calling out bluffs. Cloud’s mobility is overall better than Ridley; he’s just barely slower on the ground and is much faster in the air. He will outpace Ridley with Limit which can make Cloud hard to pin down. |
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Cloud’s will use Limit charge as a way to force approaches; you don’t want to fully take this bait and rush in to get punished or give up the stage. When Cloud gains Limit, he’s put on a 15 second timer to use it or lose it which can allow you to predict when he'll use it or even wait it out. The higher your %, the more you should be careful with Cloud’s Limit since it’s much scarier when it can kill you. |
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Cloud’s bair is extremely safe, at a minimum of -3 on shield. You should never expect to directly punish a falling bair OoS even if it is badly spaced; it can even be unpunishable on parry if Cloud spaced it outside of jab or grab range. Treat it like other safe moves, watch what they do after and punish that. |
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Cloud’s fair is respectably safe at -6/-7 (depending on sweet or sourspot) but is much more difficult to time safely since it starts high, allowing Ridley to punish with nair OoS if Cloud mistimes it. Cloud’s fair and bair will also be his main combo starters, leading to big damage with cross slash usually. They will stop working around 70%. |
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Cloud can use d-tilt or f-tilt as a mixup after landing aerials on or away from your shield to close gaps or catch you moving in. D-tilt is especially potent since it can crossup and moves faster than you’d expect, but it can be punished OoS easily enough. |
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Cross slash will be Coud’s most damage whiff punisher, as it’s huge and has mixups on shield. Cloud can stop after the 1st or 2nd hit if you block. While this isn’t technically safe, continuing the combo is, so it’s a pseudo mixup depending on how quickly you can react. Cloud is forced to finish the swings when activating hit 3. It's pretty punishable OoS (-24), so you can get a sizable punish. |
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Cloud’s dash attack is a relatively fast move that lets him call out jumps and catch landings. It hits fairly high and is active for a long time. It doesn’t kill super well but it gives Cloud good positioning on hit and is important to discourage jumps and whiffs. It's pretty punishable OoS however. |
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Cloud’s OoS game lives by his up B which is frame 7 and huge. Treat it similar to Game & Watch where you avoid landing on top of his shield or mis-spacing moves at all costs. |
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Blade beam is Cloud’s projectile, a big moving hitbox that acts as a slow wall in the air, or a fastish spacer. The FAF (first actionable frame) isn’t good, so Cloud often can’t follow it. They will generally have to bait with B-reverses or catch you using plasma too close. If they're trying to zone you with it, plasma will work as a counter as long as you keep your distance. |
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While Cloud's aerials are extremely safe on block and do decent shield damage, his grab is so bad and unrewarding that blocking becomes very powerful in a lot of situations, especially if you can parry. Just pay attention and watch for habits or punishable moves like dash attack or the sliding d-tilt. |
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Ridley’s goal is to stay patient and bait whiffs and punish overaggression. The potential reward for Ridley winning neutral is higher than Cloud’s, so you can afford to wait him out and go for more callouts. Ridley’s d-tilt is the only move to reliably outrange Cloud, so you'll want to stay around that range or further. It’s important that you always stay close enough that charging Limit isn’t free, where well placed plasma or a short dash/walk will make Cloud respond. |
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Ridley will want to stay mostly grounded and abuse his speed and d-tilt + plasma to keep Cloud jumping for whiff punishes on his bair/fair. Plasma is great for getting Cloud off the ground, just be aware of his amazing airspeed (and if he has Limit) since he can jump over it and fair/bair you if you do it too close. |
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Cloud’s aerials may be extremely safe but they have some startup. 18 and 11 for fair and bair respectively, followed by 28 frames of end lag for fair and 30 for bair. This combined with needing to be done landing will give you two important advantages, the ability to predict for parries, or challenging them before their move can come out. Parry > d-tilt or f-tilt is a strong option since even if it doesn’t true punish, it will still act as a safe poke and should stuff most buttons. |
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Remember to not give up too much stage control when Cloud's charging Limit and instead approach with spaced moves (d-tilt being the main one that reliably outranges him) or plasma to force an option out of him. On that same token, d-tilt and plasma can keep Cloud jumping for whiff punishes on his fair/bair, though just be aware of his great air speed since he'll jump and hit you with those aerials if you plasma too close. Safe as his aerials otherwise are, they still have some startup; 11 frames for bair and 18 for fair respectively, followed by 30 frames of end lag for bair and 28 for fair. |
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* Our fair stuffs his bair |
* Our fair stuffs his bair |
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Whiff punishing |
Whiff punishing Cloud’s landing aerials will condition him to use more empty hops as a bait for you to whiff. By double jumping before he touches the ground or drifting back, he can setup some nasty situations if you get antsy. This is when you can start to call out jumps with nair, fair or even u-tilt if they're fullhopping. Cloud can beat it with rising aerials but these are much riskier. |
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F-tilt angled up can see some use as an anti air, but the angle Cloud attacks from is generally hard for f-tilt to cover while also being easier to whiff punish. It still works great as a ground spacer though. |
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Cloud’s nair is small but potent when it lands, can lead to extensions, but is generally less safe than his other aerials. It's also the only aerial Cloud generally will use when rising. Cloud can also use landing uair like it’s Smash 4 against us. -5 and hits pretty well, can lead into itself or u-tilt and is an ambiguous cross up. Tilting your shield upward when Cloud is jumping can make Cloud hit you slightly higher make his move just a little less safe, any extra advantage helps. |
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Also keep in mind that full Limit lasts only 15 seconds, so you can mix it up between playing defensively (shield plenty & all the way through Limit specials, don't use laggy moves but air-to-airs) or aggressively to stall him out (use your running and jumps to keep him chasing you and waste Limit time), but remember the speed increase he gets from Limit, and watch out for favorites of theirs like bair > blue cross slash; can also break shield if not careful, but when you begin shielding blue cross slash, can spot-dodge to get out of it. |
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Crouching can also make Cloud’s landing aerial timing stricter, removing timing mixup potential and makes it safer on block but makes parry easier. |
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Cloud has an aerial blind spot in his diagonals, allowing us to counter with nair & fair when trying to land, but if still getting uair juggled, hold on to your jumps and don't airdodge directly onto him, especially with his u-smash or if he still has Limit. |
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When Cloud has Limit it’s important to not get flustered. He has stat boosts across the board, so his mixup potential is greatly increased. This can be hard to deal with especially when you consider he now has invincible specials. It's held back by one important factor, a 15 second time limit; this time limit puts the Cloud on the offensive if he wants to use his limit, making him more predictable. Cloud will be looking for a setup, either from an aerial (like nair at high % or bair/fair at low %) or getting you off stage. Waiting out the timer is perfectly viable; using jumps and run speed to keep Cloud chasing you can help you waste time. This combined with smart shielding and air-to-air's can pressure Cloud to YOLO his limit instead of risking its loss. |
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When juggling him, his dair & up B mixup is the main thing to watch out for. Challenge with u-tilt, u-smash, or from the side. Even retreating pivot grab works, but watch out for dair when under plats and still shield/avoid. |
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Bair to limit cross slash (LCS) is a scary shield break setup that’s hard to escape. You can beat this completely by parrying the last hit of it; timing isn’t too hard and is always the same. Also, limit blade beam goes through plasma. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
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Get ready for lots of uair and bair. Cloud can string bair's or reverse nair's into limit cross slash off stage for super early kills if you don’t respond. Airdodge can usually save you, but take note of your position for if Cloud can still catch you and not die. |
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While on ledge, Cloud will typically bair spam. His bair is a really strong ledgetrap tool, as its size allows it to cover neutral getup, ledge getup attack, and ledge roll while landing and is fast enough to let him pressure or punish ledge jumps on reaction followed by dash attack to hit you for hanging too long. Mixing up timings is very important here. Cloud can only hit Ridley on ledge with limit blade beam or dash attack, so you can sometimes afford to wait. Getup attack is almost always a bad idea, as Cloud is rarely ever grounded long enough for it to punish anything and is slower than neutral getup. Some exceptions can be if he's using Limit or missed a dash attack. Jump is important since it’s the only option that isn’t always directly covered in Cloud’s funny bair spams; mixing neutral getup and ledge jump with drop down options with rolls every so often can at least keep Cloud guessing. |
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Although Cloud can’t hit you on ledge with normals super well, planking isn’t a good idea since his dair and Limit moves will kill you. When Cloud has Limit, you have to be much more careful since as you’d expect, Limit blade beam will hit you on ledge free and cross slash will eat jumps & neutral getups for breakfast if he reads your timing. |
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Disadvantage off stage is a mixed bag. Cloud has the tools to beat Wing Blitz, but is thankfully limited by his fall speed and bad recovery. Horizontal recoveries should be mostly avoided unless you’re mixing up. Blade beam can interrupt SPR or WB fairly easily and fair/dair can spike you for it. Recovering low is normally what you’ll want to do, but will still have to worry about dair. It’s big enough to beat WB clean, so you’ll have to be sure you pay attention to Cloud’s position and mixup your timing. When Cloud has Limit it gets a lot trickier, as LCS is an active hitbox that keeps Cloud in place, allowing him to easily beat WB from the side. When Cloud has Limit is when you’ll want to pull out the positional mixups; even recovering slightly wider than usual can throw Cloud's off if they don’t react and swap their attacking direction. |
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When being juggled, mostly have to deal with uair. Ridley is big and Cloud is fast and has great juggle moves, so be smart with your jumps and don’t airdodge directly onto Cloud. Cloud has an aerial blind spot on his diagonals, which can let you use counter attacks like nair or fair if you can use them in this position. You will get uair'd on average, but don’t panic and mash jump when getting uair chained, as the last thing you want to happen is losing your jumps. Cloud’s up smash is fast and hits really high above him, so be careful when trying to space landings around him or when jumping over him. When Cloud has Limit it’s even more important to not land on top of him, as his Limit OoS options are very strong and huge. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
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Ledgetrapping here is fairly typical. Cloud’s ledge hang is almost as good as Ridley’s, so hitting him can be a little tricky, especially with plasma. His ledge attack is tied in range with Ridley, so it reaches pretty far. Cloud’s ledge drop options are pretty risky since it means he has to use a double jump. He can bair, nair, or fair. He can lalso edge jump up B to hit you if you're standing too close or whiffing. |
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Cloud off stage is where it gets fun. He should theoretically always die from there. Cloud has four very important resources while recovering; his double jump, airdodge, side B, and neutral B. You should always be watching for his double jump, as a Cloud without it is dead. Airdodge can give Cloud some extra distance when sent far away, or help him get to ledge. His specials will stall him in the air and give him a bit of horizontal movement, which can throw off timings and allow him to recover. Each special can only stall him once though, so keep an eye out. Blade beam can be used to swat you away for charging plasma too early or close or trying to run off, but correctly spaced plasma should be able to deal with this if you're ready for it. |
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Plasma can often do the job of gimping Cloud pretty well, but you’ll still have to go out there and threaten him to avoid him getting comfortable. Nair is great for this, especially if you catch his jump. Plasma can also occasionally lose to Climbhazzard. Cloud’s up B has trouble snapping to the ledge, only snapping when spaced low or super close to it. When you’ve got a hang of the spacing you can abuse it by hitting him with plasma, f-tilt, or even d-tilt which can be especially effective when in combo range for fair and is the faster and more active than f-tilt. Fair is great for challenging Cloud’s attempts to jump back onto the stage, since it’s fast and with the multi-hit you should beat whatever attack he chooses in most circumstances. |
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Watch out for Cloud's recovering high with the downward swing of up B. Treat it like a disjointed Wing Blitz down angle. Cloud’s up b may be scary to mess with since he can take you down with him. The risk is very worth it however, especially since if Cloud misses. Cloud is also fairly susceptible to fullhop dair on the right stages (any legal stage barring Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Story, Lylat, and Kalos), as his linear vertical recovery is perfect for getting walled out by dair. Just be aware of the giant spiking disjoint in front of him. |
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When Cloud has Limit, your focus should be on making him use it, whether it be as a counter attack or in his up B. This will be the time Cloud's are most likely to want to jump back since they want to keep Limit, so block their jump/airdodge. The hitbox on Limit up B ends well before Cloud stops rising, making it easier to challenge than you may think. |
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With juggling in advantage, Cloud has a good airspeed, fallspeed (especially with Limit), and fairly good landing aerials, so stay grounded and chase him. Our d-tilt will still whiff punish his bair/fair. Cloud’s dair is a huge disjoint; it can aid him in landing if you're trying to attack Cloud directly. It has mediocre landing lag but can be spaced to autocancel. Up smash will beat it pretty well, or you can just challenge it from the side with anything (even pivot grab), so you should be looking to bait it. |
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Always look for Cloud’s airdodge, or any landing habits for that matter. When you get a read if you can’t kill him outright, you want to prioritize putting him off the stage with horizontal moves like nair or f-tilt. Keep an eye out for up B advantage breakers; since the move is big and fast, Cloud's can use it as a mixup to catch you charging at them. Remember to watch for double jumps when going for reads, as getting Cloud off the stage without his jump is a free stock. |
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* Cloud's up B can be DI'd out of; if you hold out, the downward hitbox will send you out instead of down. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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His dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
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Cloud's up B can be DI'd out of; if you hold out, the downward hitbox will send you out instead of down. |
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His side B is generally 5 hits, with or without limit. |
His side B is generally 5 hits, with or without limit. |
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We can crouch under shorthop blade beam. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-smash and finishing touch are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Cloud fair can spike aerial opponents at the clean hit's sweetspot located at the end of the sword arc, but since it's 18 frames of startup, any of our aerials can come out beforehand. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS. |
His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS. |
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Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead. |
Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead. |
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Corrin f-smash (charged) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Their smashes are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a frame faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits. |
His f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits. |
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Diddy up tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS and his u-smash is shield punished by our f-smash. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield, so go for a reset there. |
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS and his u-smash is shield punished by our f-smash. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield, so go for a reset there. |
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Major credit to Mezcaul on the general gameplan, lose conditions, and specifics in facing the banana. |
Major credit to Mezcaul on the general gameplan, lose conditions, and specifics in facing the banana. |
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Banana Skewer combo- |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctDSgYtyWs |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible. Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage. |
While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible (same with his up B during startup). Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage. |
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For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair. |
For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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His u-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, his fair is 18 frames in startup, headbutt is 20 frames in startup, and air hand slap is 19/28 frames in startup, so our aerials can hit him beforehand. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Up smash has head intangibility on frames 9 to 13. |
Up smash has head intangibility on frames 9 to 13. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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To get in, first and foremost: |
To get in, first and foremost: |
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Figure out what moves will safely hit the can and then hit the can; our spaced tilts & aerials generally, and maybe plasma depending on distance. The can bounces 9 times before it starts smoking. This forces |
Figure out what moves will safely hit the can and then hit the can; our spaced tilts & aerials generally, and maybe plasma depending on distance. The can bounces 9 times before it starts smoking. This forces Duck Hunt to hit the can again themselves to regain control of it. Be fairly sure that they WILL try to hit the can in this case, as most of their neutral revolves around it being available. Once can is inactive, they only have the linear pressure of clay pigeon and gunman, so you can approach more safely with aerials or chance a grounded approach, being ready to shield, preferably dash shield. |
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If you go in from the air (after can has been neutralized), be wary of |
If you go in from the air (after can has been neutralized), be wary of |
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* uair, as it hits three times with a hitbox as wide as |
* uair, as it hits three times with a hitbox as wide as Duck Hunt's body |
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* |
* up smash's first and third hitbox, which hit up-and-in-front and then directly above |
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* fade back into up angled f-tilt (not disjointed) or up angled f-smash (very disjointed) |
* fade back into up angled f-tilt (not disjointed) or up angled f-smash (very disjointed) |
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Additional stuff: |
Additional stuff: |
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Keep in mind that clay pigeon has both the object's hitbox plus the shots after; said shots happen in an overlapping pattern that is larger than |
Keep in mind that clay pigeon has both the object's hitbox plus the shots after; said shots happen in an overlapping pattern that is larger than Duck Hunt themselves. It's better to shield tilt it than try to play tightly around it as the hitstun is generous and they can somewhat spam it at close ranges. Duck Hunt grabs don't lead into much besides can setups and has no kill throws, so this isn't the worst thing to do depending on the situation. |
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One other big piece of advice is don't push your advantage when you're both grounded because they can hit you with a clay pigeon out of hitstun and suddenly your combo is theirs. Same thing with covering landings; don't try to time a tilt because you might get hit by a clay pigeon. Charge plasma from away or let them land. Either way it's not worth the risk of getting hit by clay pigeon. |
One other big piece of advice is don't push your advantage when you're both grounded because they can hit you with a clay pigeon out of hitstun and suddenly your combo is theirs. Same thing with covering landings; don't try to time a tilt because you might get hit by a clay pigeon. Charge plasma from away or let them land. Either way it's not worth the risk of getting hit by clay pigeon which you're always better off avoiding and then punishing. Duck Hunt's committed to being in the side B animation for 64 frames. |
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Gunman has a longer cooldown ( |
Gunman has a longer cooldown (two or so seconds) if you hit them, so take the odd safe chance to do that if the opponent uses them a lot. They take hitlag the same as any other character or object, so be aware that Duck Hunt can do funky stuff like a retreating jump to drop a gunman which eats the attack while they use the extra frames to act. The fastest gunman is the one in red. |
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When being ledgetrapped by Duck Hunt, don’t hit the can with ledge getup attack, as he can f-smash it back. |
When being ledgetrapped by Duck Hunt, don’t hit the can with ledge getup attack, as he can f-smash it back. |
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Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile. |
Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile. |
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His f-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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His u-smash and d-smash have some intangibility on the legs, and his d-tilt. |
His u-smash and d-smash have some intangibility on the legs, and his d-tilt. |
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Line 753: | Line 898: | ||
Falco multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (2 hits), nair (4 hits), fair (6 hits) |
Falco multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (2 hits), nair (4 hits), fair (6 hits) |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Note that the air version of Falco side B can spike aerial opponents, but it's 13/18 frames in startup, so possible to attack him beforehand. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 800: | Line 949: | ||
Fox fair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 to 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
Fox fair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 to 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His u-smash, d-smash, and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Fox can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > whatever, for delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > whatever, for delayed getup. |
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Line 826: | Line 979: | ||
Ganon will have to use clever movement and jump mixups to bait you into either a whiff or catch you shielding/dashing. Any move Ganon has will give him advantage if it lands, so you have to play outside his bubble at all times. For such a heavy hitter, Ganon’s moves are safer on shield than you’d expect; landing nair, fair, and bair are basically completely safe and you shouldn’t be attempting to directly punish them. Watch what they do after. Late hit dash attack and spaced d-tilt are also safe. |
Ganon will have to use clever movement and jump mixups to bait you into either a whiff or catch you shielding/dashing. Any move Ganon has will give him advantage if it lands, so you have to play outside his bubble at all times. For such a heavy hitter, Ganon’s moves are safer on shield than you’d expect; landing nair, fair, and bair are basically completely safe and you shouldn’t be attempting to directly punish them. Watch what they do after. Late hit dash attack and spaced d-tilt are also safe. |
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It’s important to keep in mind where you are on stage. The last thing you want is for Ganon to corner you. When shielding, watch out for |
It’s important to keep in mind where you are on stage. The last thing you want is for Ganon to corner you. When shielding, watch out for Wizkick crossups, and of course flame choke or dark dive setups, the latter of which is a go-to if you're cornered. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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Line 869: | Line 1,022: | ||
His dair if timed right along with air Wizkick can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there. |
His dair if timed right along with air Wizkick can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there. |
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While his dash attack does not crossup on our shield like it would for others, his grounded Wizkick still does, but it's riskier for him to do on account of Wizkick having more end lag and being less safe on shield (still -29, so can do a turnaround f-smash in which case). |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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His u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, and neutral B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, his air side B and down B are 16 frames in startup, so possible to attack him beforehand with our aerials if he goes for those spikes. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 874: | Line 1,035: | ||
Our jab comes out well before his, so always use in up close scramble situations. His jab on shield is normally too safe for us to punish though, so reset. All his other normals you can at least nair OoS and such though. |
Our jab comes out well before his, so always use in up close scramble situations. His jab on shield is normally too safe for us to punish though, so reset. All his other normals you can at least nair OoS and such though. |
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His up smash is shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Wizkick is shield punished by Ridley f-smash, and air Wizkick (-34) is even more unsafe, but does much shield damage, so don't shield if it's not at full health. His f-smash, u-smash, d-smash 1, and Wizkick are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His up smash is shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Wizkick is shield punished by Ridley f-smash as pointed out, and air Wizkick (-34) is even more unsafe, but does much shield damage, so don't shield if it's not at full health. His f-smash, u-smash, d-smash 1, and Wizkick are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 909: | Line 1,070: | ||
For weaknesses, it lacks an effective OoS option. Will often run away after shielding as a result, which you can catch on to, but remember its mixup with counter. They also lack combo breakers, with its nair & fair having slow startup and the other three aerials not having very big hitboxes; so like after shielding, its best option in the air is to jump away which you can also anticipate. |
For weaknesses, it lacks an effective OoS option. Will often run away after shielding as a result, which you can catch on to, but remember its mixup with counter. They also lack combo breakers, with its nair & fair having slow startup and the other three aerials not having very big hitboxes; so like after shielding, its best option in the air is to jump away which you can also anticipate. That said, Greninja can use Water Shuriken to stall themselves in the air and be used as a landing mixup, as well as up B landing mixups. |
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Like us, it has no kill throws, so at higher % you're safer from grabs, but DI away from d-throw. |
Like us, it has no kill throws, so at higher % you're safer from grabs, but DI away from d-throw. |
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Line 926: | Line 1,087: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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SPR Greninja on plats if worried about him substitute countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
SPR Greninja on plats if worried about him substitute countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
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Greninja d-tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His f-smash, d-smash, fair, and Shadow Sneak are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Greninja can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note the down angled version of Substitute will spike aerial opponents. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,003: | Line 1,174: | ||
Hero dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
Hero dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full neutral B, since our hurtbox is likely still big enough to be hit by it. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-tilt 2, smashes, dair, and Hatchet Man are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his. |
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Hero edgeguard concept where you can get most of his up B attempts with dair- |
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* https://youtu.be/mCoSJA1GRbU?si=vg-l_cIWt1dX1CFQ |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, giving us the advantage in close range. |
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His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 3 and f-smash are at least -25 and thus shorthop SPR punished OoS. F-tilt 2 can even by shield punished by f-smash, while his jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so reset there. Hero side B you also want to punish OoS when close. |
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 3 and f-smash are at least -25 and thus shorthop SPR punished OoS. F-tilt 2 can even by shield punished by f-smash, while his jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so reset there. Hero side B you also want to punish OoS when close. |
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Line 1,036: | Line 1,220: | ||
They rely heavily on shielding. Climbers will keep their back turned from you, typically for bair pressure. When they mix that in with shielding, it's a bait to get you to try and grab them, or they'll desync and wall you out. This will be done mostly through their specials. |
They rely heavily on shielding. Climbers will keep their back turned from you, typically for bair pressure. When they mix that in with shielding, it's a bait to get you to try and grab them, or they'll desync and wall you out. This will be done mostly through their specials. |
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There's many setups to desyncing, so is up to you to understand how they desync; a common one being |
There's many setups to desyncing, so is up to you to understand how they desync; a common one being shorthop uair, apart from side B (squal hammer's also used to reconnect them during disadvantage). They also want to desync into a grab, which is dangerous as explained earlier, as is being above them. |
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Their multi-hit u-tilt is also something to watch out for, due to its combos and confirms. |
Their multi-hit u-tilt is also something to watch out for, due to its combos and confirms. |
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Line 1,042: | Line 1,226: | ||
D-throw doesn't hit Nana, making you vulnerable to getting smash attacked. Use f-throw (past ~15%), b-throw, or u-throw to separate them instead, making them the go-to for the MU rather than d-throw. Mix everything together and chase down Nana for a kill. |
D-throw doesn't hit Nana, making you vulnerable to getting smash attacked. Use f-throw (past ~15%), b-throw, or u-throw to separate them instead, making them the go-to for the MU rather than d-throw. Mix everything together and chase down Nana for a kill. |
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Aside from bair pressure, another reason they like to have their backs turned is so you grab the AI Climber instead of the player, letting the latter smash attack you, and they can shield you pummeling the AI, though it stops them from hitting you |
Aside from bair pressure, another reason they like to have their backs turned is so you grab the AI Climber instead of the player, letting the latter smash attack you, and they can shield you pummeling the AI, though it stops them from hitting you. |
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Line 1,057: | Line 1,241: | ||
If you condition them to not side B out of disadvantage, their other landing options are subpar, so maybe go for a quick uair which beats out their puny range before they start mashing B again. |
If you condition them to not side B out of disadvantage, their other landing options are subpar, so maybe go for a quick uair which beats out their puny range before they start mashing B again. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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IC multihits- u-tilt (7 hits), side B (8 hits with both & 11 hits solo), down B (9 hits) |
IC multihits- u-tilt (7 hits), side B (8 hits with both & 11 hits solo), down B (9 hits) |
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IC's Squall Hammer hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3, 4, or 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
IC's Squall Hammer hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3, 4, or 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With IC's fair, it spikes aerial opponents if hit with the sweetspot located in front of Nana, though only the partner's fair can spike, as the leader's will always launch opponents horizontally. It's 19 frames in startup though, so our aerials can attack beforehand. |
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D-tilt is their only normal that hits our ledge hang. |
D-tilt is their only normal that hits our ledge hang. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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They're pretty floaty and as such, their dair can be punished by u-smash OoS. Also, when both of them are together, the AI's attacks land 7 frames later. They share frame data on attacks but if only one hits something, the other will delay their attack, essentially sharing the hitlag in order to stay at a comparable level of desync. |
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Also with them being floaty, their dair is more easily punished by our u-smash OoS. When both of them are together though, the AI's attacks land 7 frames later. They share frame data on attacks but if only one hits something, the other will delay their attack, essentially sharing the hitlag in order to stay at a comparable level of desync. |
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Their side B is -21 to -24 and can crossup shield. While AI will have invincibility frames at the start of their up B, the main Climber will not, so you can attack since the main one alone will be vulnerable. Their recovery can also be body blocked. |
Their side B is -21 to -24 and can crossup shield. While AI will have invincibility frames at the start of their up B, the main Climber will not, so you can attack since the main one alone will be vulnerable. Their recovery can also be body blocked. |
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Line 1,088: | Line 1,280: | ||
Otherwise, with neutral, play defensively. Aside from what was already covered on that, there's also trying to grab or dash attack a whiffed aerial, along with plasma to force Ike to approach or jump. Remember too his f-tilt is around the same range as ours. |
Otherwise, with neutral, play defensively. Aside from what was already covered on that, there's also trying to grab or dash attack a whiffed aerial, along with plasma to force Ike to approach or jump. Remember too his f-tilt is around the same range as ours. |
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Avoid getting hit by Ike nair perhaps most of all. Parry & punish, or dash in, shield, and grab immediately when Ike lands or when in range. Ike will always do a falling nair, so if it becomes predictable, Ridley can do a rising aerial to stuff him out before he nairs |
Avoid getting hit by Ike nair perhaps most of all. Parry & punish, or dash in, shield, and grab immediately when Ike lands or when in range. Ike will always do a falling nair, so if it becomes predictable, Ridley can do a rising aerial to stuff him out before he nairs. |
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When Ike's above you, can hit him out of Eruption (neutral B) with uair. When recovering from ledge, can avoid getting nair'd with normal getup > shield or reading Ike’s jump > fair from ledge. SPR can be useful in recovery since Ike cannot counter it, unlike up B. |
When Ike's above you, can hit him out of Eruption (neutral B) with uair. When recovering from ledge, can avoid getting nair'd with normal getup > shield or reading Ike’s jump > fair from ledge. SPR can be useful in recovery since Ike cannot counter it, unlike up B. |
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Line 1,103: | Line 1,295: | ||
Eruption (neutral B) has super armor on medium and full charge, frames 6 to 10. |
Eruption (neutral B) has super armor on medium and full charge, frames 6 to 10. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His smashes and aerials are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational; same with our dair coming out a couple frames faster than his uair if wanting to use it as a landing mixup. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His jab 3 is punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. |
His jab 3 is punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. |
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All his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such, while his smashes are mostly punished by whatever. His landing aerials are usually too safe though unless you can specifically punish nair in the way that was mentioned earlier. Quickdraw can be from -28 to -22 on shield, and his up B is -29 like the jab 3. |
All his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such, while his smashes are mostly punished by whatever. His landing aerials are usually too safe though unless you can specifically punish nair in the way that was mentioned earlier. Quickdraw can be from -28 to -22 on shield, and his up B is -29 like the jab 3. If he whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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His jab 2/3, smashes, neutral B, side B, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab 2/3, smashes, neutral B, side B, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 1,170: | Line 1,368: | ||
When he’s not trying to get you with side B or fair which are easily whiff punished, the moves he’ll want to use most at low % are d-tilt, uair, and grabs. |
When he’s not trying to get you with side B or fair which are easily whiff punished, the moves he’ll want to use most at low % are d-tilt, uair, and grabs. |
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His up throw can kill. |
His up throw can kill us around 154%. |
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His dash attack goes further than you’d think. Has a pretty good burst range, so be aware when landing and trying to space around him. |
His dash attack goes further than you’d think. Has a pretty good burst range, so be aware when landing and trying to space around him. |
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His d-smash and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note that Incineroar's up B spikes as he starts descending with it. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,200: | Line 1,404: | ||
|summary= |
|summary= |
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===== Neutral ===== |
===== Neutral ===== |
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Perhaps the most important thing to remember with the Inkling matchup, is don't get roller'd. Always be aware of the possibility of roller, be it when Inkling takes horizontal knockback, as a landing option, from ledge, or after a bait. Because of this, you need to be careful of where & when you dash since it removes your ability to shield instantly, apart from dash shielding. D |
Perhaps the most important thing to remember with the Inkling matchup, is don't get roller'd. Always be aware of the possibility of roller, be it when Inkling takes horizontal knockback, as a landing option, from ledge, or after a bait. Because of this, you need to be careful of where & when you dash since it removes your ability to shield instantly, apart from dash shielding. D-tilt, u-tilt, and u-smash OoS are true punishes if you react quick enough, aside from nair & grab. Also keep in mind Inkling has many moves that will put you in a tech situation which they can chase with roller and will catch most if not all tech options depending on position. It can actually be optimal to occasionally miss a tech so the roller won’t bury you. |
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While Inkling can act 5 frames earlier after refilling ink thanks to a final patch buff, the ink refill itself is still punishable. It has about as much lag as landing up B, so if they use it too close you can punish with dash attack, SPR, ect. Keep an eye on their ink tank. Recharging it is still laggy and without it they lose some of their best options (jab, splat bomb, roller, weaker smashes). |
While Inkling can act 5 frames earlier after refilling ink thanks to a final patch buff, the ink refill itself is still punishable. It has about as much lag as landing up B, so if they use it too close you can punish with dash attack, SPR, ect. Keep an eye on their ink tank. Recharging it is still laggy and without it they lose some of their best options (jab, splat bomb, roller, weaker smashes, and f-throw). |
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For neutral, plasma isn’t very good, and up angle f-tilt can be frustrating to anti-air with because of Inkling’s gun disjoint with bair and such. Inkling builds damage in specific ways with jab |
For neutral, plasma isn’t very good, and up angle f-tilt can be frustrating to anti-air with because of Inkling’s gun disjoint with bair and such. Inkling builds damage in specific ways with jab, grab, and bair. Your goal should be to avoid these moves and space around them with your range. Jab and grab are pretty self explanatory, just use range and speed to stay out of their bubble. |
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Bair is much more difficult to play around because of its speed, safety, and weird attack angle. F-tilt when spaced well can beat bair, but it’s easy to get your arm clipped when trying to rely on angled f-tilt. Inkling bair is a move you’ll have to predict and read to play around. Remember your fair if they’re abusing landing bair on you and force them to use less safe rising bair's. |
Bair is much more difficult to play around because of its speed, safety, and weird attack angle. F-tilt when spaced well can beat bair, but it’s easy to get your arm clipped when trying to rely on angled f-tilt. Inkling bair is a move you’ll have to predict and read to play around. Remember your fair if they’re abusing landing bair on you and force them to use less safe rising bair's. |
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Line 1,227: | Line 1,431: | ||
Don’t DI Inkling’s mid % combos out, as you’ll find yourself dying to a strong fair at 70 if you do. DI the low % combos out, then swap to DI in so you don’t die to fair; can also take stage position into account. |
Don’t DI Inkling’s mid % combos out, as you’ll find yourself dying to a strong fair at 70 if you do. DI the low % combos out, then swap to DI in so you don’t die to fair; can also take stage position into account. |
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For ledgetrapping, Inkling’s will use uncharged splat bomb similarly to Dedede’s up gordos. Its purpose is to cover jump, neutral getup, and waiting. It doesn’t bounce however which opens up ledge jump sooner than gordos. Getup attack can power through splat bomb if it makes contact with the hitbox before our intangibility expires. You can use this to swat away Inkling's who are abusing splat bomb to trap you. Ledge jump nair is also pretty good for dealing with splat bomb, but just be mindful of Inkling bair and don’t spam it. |
For ledgetrapping, Inkling’s will use uncharged splat bomb similarly to Dedede’s up gordos. Its purpose is to cover jump, neutral getup, and waiting. It doesn’t bounce however which opens up ledge jump sooner than gordos. The only ground normal Inkling can use to hit Ridley on ledge is the 2nd hit of d-tilt. Getup attack can power through splat bomb if it makes contact with the hitbox before our intangibility expires. You can use this to swat away Inkling's who are abusing splat bomb to trap you. Ledge jump nair is also pretty good for dealing with splat bomb, but just be mindful of Inkling bair and don’t spam it. |
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Off stage, when trying to recover low with up B and they bair you, always be ready to tech it from the side of stage. Will keep you alive for awhile. Splat bomb can kinda beat Wing Blitz, as it’ll slow down when it hits the top of WB but will still hit Ridley when it makes contact with his hurtbox. Because of this, should be careful with holding down to peak up B’s hitbox when they use splat bomb, as it can make hitting Ridley’s hurtbox much more possible. |
Off stage, when trying to recover low with up B and they bair you, always be ready to tech it from the side of stage. Will keep you alive for awhile. Splat bomb can kinda beat Wing Blitz, as it’ll slow down when it hits the top of WB but will still hit Ridley when it makes contact with his hurtbox. Because of this, should be careful with holding down to peak up B’s hitbox when they use splat bomb, as it can make hitting Ridley’s hurtbox much more possible. |
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Line 1,236: | Line 1,440: | ||
===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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Remember that Inkling up B has a hitbox when landing with it on stage. Also them being able to use splat bomb from ledge or as a landing/B-reverse mixup. |
Remember that Inkling up B has a hitbox when landing with it on stage. Also them being able to use splat bomb from ledge or as a landing/B-reverse mixup. |
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Inkling is fairly floaty, so they have a relatively high FAF (first actionable frame) on their directional airdodge. This opens them up to easier frame traps. |
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One other thing that people tend to forget, try to avoid any ink on the ground which slows you down. Jump over if necessary until it goes away. Also, tipper d-tilt reflects splat bomb. |
One other thing that people tend to forget, try to avoid any ink on the ground which slows you down. Jump over if necessary until it goes away. Also, tipper d-tilt reflects splat bomb. |
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Line 1,246: | Line 1,448: | ||
Up B can wall Inkling very well from recovering too if they side B early because they can't stop their momentum out of the small jump they do out of side B while being safe and letting you ledgetrap if they go low. |
Up B can wall Inkling very well from recovering too if they side B early because they can't stop their momentum out of the small jump they do out of side B while being safe and letting you ledgetrap if they go low. |
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Far as juggling them, Inkling has only one good aerial for landing, being bair. Focus on juggling them when they’re facing you, as their nair and fair hit too high, and dair is slow (16 frames in startup), so you can abuse tilts and aerials to keep Inkling in the air. |
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Inkling is fairly floaty, so they have a relatively high FAF (first actionable frame) on their directional airdodge. This opens them up to easier frame traps. |
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If you find yourself with Inkling’s back to you, be careful and attempt to cause fear with your positioning and get them to ledge. You can attempt to challenge landing bair's if they’re predictable, as up smash is meaty and can beat predictable landing aerials. |
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They can use uncharged splat bomb to act as a cover for their landings. FAF is 51 frames, so it’s punishable if you’re positioned well. Trading with the bomb is worth it if you can kill Inkling in the process. They have good aerial mobility, so B-reverse splat bomb can occasionally be useful for dodging our juggling. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Inkling dair & roller hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Inkling dair & roller hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Her d-tilt & uair are 2 hits. |
Her d-tilt & uair are 2 hits. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Her f-smash, u-smash, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational; same with our dair coming out a frame faster than her uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Aside from rapid jab skewer or d-smash punish (shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent), her normals and roller are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and her up smash is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. Her dash attack can crossup your shield a bit, so react and punish accordingly. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so go for a reset there. |
Aside from rapid jab skewer or d-smash punish (shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent), her normals and roller are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and her up smash is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. Her dash attack can crossup your shield a bit, so react and punish accordingly. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so go for a reset there. |
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Line 1,281: | Line 1,501: | ||
You can shield the fishing rod, and stay low when recovering to avoid it off stage, or if she's at ledge, do a beefy up B. Also remember she can tether grab with the fish hook when she's off stage. |
You can shield the fishing rod, and stay low when recovering to avoid it off stage, or if she's at ledge, do a beefy up B. Also remember she can tether grab with the fish hook when she's off stage. |
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Either use a solid aerial (or f-tilt if you're at ledge) to hit the balloons on their up B or go around them and hit the character themselves while they're recovering. |
Either use a solid aerial (or f-tilt if you're at ledge) to hit the balloons on their up B or go around them and hit the character themselves while they're recovering. Her up B has a good vertical and horizontal distance, though it travels a slightly shorter distance than Villager's version. |
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While Lloid Trap (takes 51 frames for it to be planted and active and disappears after 10 seconds) usually isn't hard to destroy with a ranged attack if it's still in the ground when given the opportunity, will have to watch out for this move most when being ledgetrapped by Isabelle, with it being able to catch any ledge options of timed and positioned right. It also combos into her uair if close enough, making it a kill confirm at high %. Lloid Trap also has the niche application known as Glyroid where if she activates Lloid during her initial dash, she'll quickly slide a short distance, allowing it to be used as a movement mixup for approaching. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Her dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. |
Her dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. Same with her dash attack on a plat due to being a projectile that hits at mid range on someone underneath her. |
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Isabelle multi-hits: u-smash (2 hits), d-smash (2 hits), nair (2 hits), Lloid Trap (6 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Isabelle's normals are punished by nair OoS. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Her f-tilt, dash attack, f-smash. and d-smash are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are also punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
Isabelle's normals are punished by nair OoS. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Her f-tilt, dash attack, f-smash. and d-smash are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are also punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Similar to Villager, her grab is 14 frames in startup and 27 in end lag. |
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Ridley kill confirm- |
Ridley kill confirm- |
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Line 1,309: | Line 1,539: | ||
She'll wait for you to whiff and fly in & punish (her wall of pain speaks for itself), so time your anti-airs (i. e. u-tilt). Also understand how she chooses to approach from the air in neutral. |
She'll wait for you to whiff and fly in & punish (her wall of pain speaks for itself), so time your anti-airs (i. e. u-tilt). Also understand how she chooses to approach from the air in neutral. |
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Her 9-hit dair is a good combo starter, and confirms into Rest (is invulnerable on |
Her 9-hit dair is a good combo starter, and confirms into Rest (is invulnerable on frames 1-27). Also respect her bair as a potential kill move. |
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Far as her Pound side B, respect its shield damage and as a neutral tool with a lingering hitbox that combos (she'll DJ out of it or land with an aerial). Shielding when not cornered is a solid option, but Pound keeps you on your toes. |
Far as her Pound side B, respect its shield damage and as a neutral tool with a lingering hitbox that combos (she'll DJ out of it or land with an aerial). Shielding when not cornered is a solid option, but Pound keeps you on your toes. |
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Line 1,315: | Line 1,545: | ||
When she uses Sing, shield and angle it if you have to, or otherwise roll/jump away after shielding. Sing has 34 frames of end lag, so take advantage of your range. Also hold shield if she uses Sing at ledge. Don't shield Rollout though; treat it the same as you would Yoshi's Egg Roll by jumping over. |
When she uses Sing, shield and angle it if you have to, or otherwise roll/jump away after shielding. Sing has 34 frames of end lag, so take advantage of your range. Also hold shield if she uses Sing at ledge. Don't shield Rollout though; treat it the same as you would Yoshi's Egg Roll by jumping over. |
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If you break her shield, get gets KO'd automatically, |
If you break her shield, get gets KO'd automatically, though this is rare. Her nair OoS is good at tech chases, so don't miss tech, and punish OoS rising aerials as always. |
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Her throws are weak and don't lead into true combos, so don't worry much about getting grabbed. When she recovers, can try to footstool. |
Her throws are weak and don't lead into true combos, so don't worry much about getting grabbed. When she recovers, can try to footstool. |
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In disadvantage, her d-smash hits ledge hang, and likes to ledgetrap with nair which covers most options. They can mix it up with a fullhop nair too so they can DJ out of it, but watch if they over-commit. |
In disadvantage, her d-smash hits ledge hang, and likes to ledgetrap with nair which covers most options. They can mix it up with a fullhop nair too so they can DJ out of it, but watch if they over-commit. When being juggled, we can use dair as a mixup against her landing uair if she's expecting an airdodge. |
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Line 1,326: | Line 1,556: | ||
Her d-smash, dair, and Sing can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Her d-smash, dair, and Sing can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Against a Puff with good execution, most of the match is either shielding/crouching while doing either d-tilt or retreating nairs (to neutralize more of their specials) and f-tilts. If your shield is too low you’ll get poked by rising dair and Pound, and that’s where the “cutscene” starts. |
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Puff has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
Puff has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as well as being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a resource, and then count the remaining jumps in Puff's case. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her Sing and Rest are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Against a Puff with good execution, most of the match is either shielding/crouching while doing either d-tilt or retreating nairs (to neutralize more of their specials) and f-tilts. If your shield is too low you’ll get poked by rising dair and Pound, and that’s where the “cutscene” starts. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,378: | Line 1,614: | ||
Multi-hits: His fair, f-tilt, dash attack, and d-smash are 2 hits, while his u-tilt is 5 hits. |
Multi-hits: His fair, f-tilt, dash attack, and d-smash are 2 hits, while his u-tilt is 5 hits. |
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Joker uair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their arsene up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His u-smash and d-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a couple frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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SPR Joker on plats if worried about him tetrakarn countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
SPR Joker on plats if worried about him tetrakarn countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
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Line 1,451: | Line 1,697: | ||
With Kazuya down B, aside from DI'ing it from on stage like other command grabs, Kazuya dies first at the bottom blast zone and you can recover if you react quick enough. |
With Kazuya down B, aside from DI'ing it from on stage like other command grabs, Kazuya dies first at the bottom blast zone and you can recover if you react quick enough. |
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Aside from Kazuya d-smash being able to break shield, also be aware that it can spike if used at ledge, so be aware of it when timing your recovery. His nair when used off stage can also spike, but can be difficult for him to space. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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While you can obviously SDI out of Kazuya's 10 hit jab, it's easier said than done, as they can require 3, 4, or 5 SDI inputs, each hit of which only has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. That said, Kazuya's other moves you can do a minimum of at least one SDI input to try and get out of his usual combos, aside from the standard DI method with Kazuya as explained earlier. SDI's appear to work even better than the regular DI, for that matter. Dash walk SDI particularly is said to work well against the usual Kazuya stuff involving EWGF, in which it's best to shield right after you escape the EWGF followup (i.e. crouch jab or nair), but can try flick SDI too if that's what you're more comfortable with. |
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With Kazuya's fastest OoS options in order being uair (11 frames), u-smash/up B (12 frames), and nair/fair (15 frames) which is a worse OoS game overall than ours, Ridley can abuse his shield quite well from the side, long as you space your attacks like usual. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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One way of baiting out laser before edgeguarding him is getting on ledge, that way you're still in a dangerous position and can punish what he does after. |
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Skewer can beat out Rage Drive if timed and positioned right. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His side taunt, crouching down-forward tilt (Tombstone Crusher), and f-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,466: | Line 1,726: | ||
On a somewhat related side note, Kazuya can use his double jump after up B (typically used in the form of aerials), but he can’t use his DJ again until after landing. |
On a somewhat related side note, Kazuya can use his double jump after up B (typically used in the form of aerials), but he can’t use his DJ again until after landing. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 1,507: | Line 1,765: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Ryu/Ken normals that can combo into specials- |
Ryu/Ken normals that can combo into specials- |
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Neutral attack 1 and 2 (tapped) |
* Neutral attack 1 and 2 (tapped) |
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Neutral attack (close, held) |
* Neutral attack (close, held) |
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F-tilt (close, tapped) |
* F-tilt (close, tapped) |
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U-tilt (held or tapped) |
* U-tilt (held or tapped) |
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D-tilt (held or tapped) |
* D-tilt (held or tapped) |
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D-smash |
* D-smash |
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Nair |
* Nair |
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Fair |
* Fair |
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Uair |
* Uair |
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Bair |
* Bair |
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Dair |
* Dair |
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Up tilt (light) requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 9 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,588: | Line 1,850: | ||
Inhale is mashable, grounded Jet Hammer has 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
Inhale is mashable, grounded Jet Hammer has 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a resource, and then count the remaining jumps in Dedede's case. |
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His u-smash and Jet Hammer (full charge) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out eleven frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note that his up B will spike aerial opponents as he descends with it, aside from it burying grounded opponents. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,707: | Line 1,977: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Dash attack will beat King K. Rool's shorthop if spaced. |
Dash attack will beat King K. Rool's shorthop if spaced. |
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Krown has so much end lag that you can run over it and SPR him, and then jump release it before the krown comes back. |
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In a situation where both you and the K Rool are at high % and you do a Wing Blitz forward trade in exchange for getting hit by krown toss on the way back, getting hit by it knocks you upward in the air a bit, putting you in a position to dair him off stage when he uses his jump. |
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K Rool has intangibility with u-tilt like Ridley (in Rool’s case on the arm), and on the head during u-smash and uair, so don’t try landing on him at all. Also, his d-tilt can hit us when we’re under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
K Rool has intangibility with u-tilt like Ridley (in Rool’s case on the arm), and on the head during u-smash and uair, so don’t try landing on him at all. Also, his d-tilt can hit us when we’re under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Line 1,713: | Line 1,987: | ||
With krown as an item, Ridley can forward toss it, fair, and catch the krown while shield poking. If K Rool uses krown toss nearby in neutral, retreating nair (sweetspot) should be able to break the armor since it's 12%. |
With krown as an item, Ridley can forward toss it, fair, and catch the krown while shield poking. If K Rool uses krown toss nearby in neutral, retreating nair (sweetspot) should be able to break the armor since it's 12%. |
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SDI against his up B when he uses propeller against you offensively to KO you into the upper blast zone. Likewise, when K Rool does an up throw after blunderbuss suction, expect a possible up B and SDI to avoid getting pushed into the upper blast zone. |
SDI against his up B when he uses propeller against you offensively to KO you into the upper blast zone (specifically, it requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's). Likewise, when K Rool does an up throw after blunderbuss suction, expect a possible up B and SDI to avoid getting pushed into the upper blast zone. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His dash attack, smashes, fair, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. If he gets his dair out though, a trade usually won't be in our favor because of belly armor, and while K Rool's bair can spike, it has 18 frames of startup, so possible to hit him with whatever aerials beforehand. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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K Rool's normals can be punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and like Bowser or Wario, his dash attack and smashes are unsafe on shield enough to be punished by Rid f-smash (turnaround f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS if his dash attack crosses up) and u-smash OoS. Watch out for the shield damage that his d-smash causes though, and his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. |
K Rool's normals can be punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and like Bowser or Wario, his dash attack and smashes are unsafe on shield enough to be punished by Rid f-smash (turnaround f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS if his dash attack crosses up) and u-smash OoS. Watch out for the shield damage that his d-smash causes though, and his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. |
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Line 1,726: | Line 2,006: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (113-127%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (113-127%) |
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Credit to the old Ridley JMU doc for a certain chunk of this info, |
Credit to the old Ridley JMU doc for a certain chunk of this info, credit to smub on some of the details on neutral and advantage state, and to Zeta on the Wing Blitz and krown toss trade scenario. |
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https://x.com/5atez/status/1855030959558869353?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 1,755: | Line 2,037: | ||
His d-smash, dair, and Stone hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
His d-smash, dair, and Stone hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
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Has a 3 |
Has a 3-hit fair and 6-hit dair. |
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Kirby dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. What's more, Kirby up B hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
Kirby dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. What's more, Kirby up B hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Kirby’s and by extension Dedede’s inhale is mashable. Drift back fair after mashing out of Kirby’s since he can confirm footstool on neutral or DI in & can punish mash out jump nair with his fair for some reason. |
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Use retreating nair for neutralizing more of their specials. |
Use retreating nair for neutralizing more of their specials. |
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Line 1,765: | Line 2,049: | ||
The Hammer Flip side B has super armor on the ground when fully charged. |
The Hammer Flip side B has super armor on the ground when fully charged. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our uair comes out seven frames faster than the first hit of his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair with the right timing, although situational. Also note his up B can spike aerial opponents when descending, aside from the final hit of his dair. |
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Kirby’s and by extension Dedede’s inhale is mashable. Drift back fair after mashing out of Kirby’s since he can confirm footstool on neutral or DI in & can punish mash out jump nair with his fair for some reason. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer bypasses Stone armor. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable; as is dash attack, but it crosses up shield, so be ready to turnaround f-smash. His d-smash is shorthop skewer OoS punishable. Normals are too safe besides those and smashes, and landing aerials too safe besides dair. Side B is -26 to -18, and up B is -21. Although Stone is very minus (even punished by shield drop > d-smash), Stone does too much shield damage to usually be worth it. |
His rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable; as is dash attack, but it crosses up shield, so be ready to turnaround f-smash. His d-smash is shorthop skewer OoS punishable. Normals are too safe besides those and smashes, and landing aerials too safe besides dair. Side B is -26 to -18, and up B is -21. Although Stone is very minus (even punished by shield drop > d-smash), Stone does too much shield damage to usually be worth it. |
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Line 1,805: | Line 2,093: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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His f-smash 2 and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Mac nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Mac side B up close crosses up on our shield, so may need to do a turnaround punish, but it's still -36 to -39. |
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His KO Punch is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward or anything in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Aside from super armor on his smashes & KO Uppercut and intangibility on his grounded side B, Mac's neutral B has 8% worth of armor when charging, and 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
Aside from super armor on his smashes & KO Uppercut and intangibility on his grounded side B, Mac's neutral B has 8% worth of armor when charging, and 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
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His rapid jab finisher is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his grounded normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such. His landing aerials besides bair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. His specials are especially unsafe, with full charged neutral B being -82 and side B being -39 to -36. |
His rapid jab finisher is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his grounded normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such. His landing aerials besides bair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. His specials are especially unsafe, with full charged neutral B being -82 and side B being -39 to -36. If he whiffs a slip counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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His jab 3, rapid jab finisher, u-smash, neutral B (regardless of charge), and side B are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab 3, rapid jab finisher, u-smash, neutral B (regardless of charge), and side B are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full aura sphere, since our hurtbox is likely still big enough to be hit by it. |
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SPR Lucario on plats if worried about him double team countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
SPR Lucario on plats if worried about him double team countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
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Lucario force palm (grab version) is mashable. |
Lucario force palm (grab version) is mashable. |
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When Lucario lands on stage with up B, they have little lag, so if not on stage yet, don't be baited into attacking them from ledge. |
When Lucario lands on stage with up B, they have little lag, so if not on stage yet, don't be baited into attacking them from ledge. ''That being said'', their up B has 46 frames of startup lag, making them quite vulnerable to edgeguarding and such when you're the one in advantage. |
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Lucario multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), nair (2 hits), dair (2 hits) |
Lucario multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), nair (2 hits), dair (2 hits) |
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His u-smash, d-smash, bair, and Force Palm are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Most Lucas players will opt for stalling with their double jump for a bit before tethering to the ledge. Once you have them out there with no jump, you can chase them as far as you want as they try to position for up B. |
Most Lucas players will opt for stalling with their double jump for a bit before tethering to the ledge. Once you have them out there with no jump, you can chase them as far as you want as they try to position for up B. |
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The rest of the neutral’s just playing the slow wall out game while respecting his projectiles/zair. |
The rest of the neutral’s just playing the slow wall out game while respecting his projectiles/zair. Far as disadvantage, note that his multi-hit d-smash can contest our up B while it's active unlike Ness's yoyo. |
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Lucas d-smash and dair hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
Lucas d-smash and dair hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Lucas multihits- d-smash (3 hits), nair (4 hits) |
Lucas multihits- d-smash (3 hits), nair & dair (4 hits), PK Thunder self-hit (12 hits) |
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If timed right, an aerial such as nair can trade with Lucas's PK thunder 2 despite the multi-hits. Still, his possible startup positions from PK thunder 2 are a lot more versatile than Ness's, but if you can get him far enough away to where his route becomes predictable, then it becomes an easy kill as far as hitting him, though it's not easy to condition that while also watching out for PK fire and zair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Lucas nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. PK thunder requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His normals besides d-tilt and f-tilt are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by whatever (is -54 on shield). His landing aerials besides the 4-hit dair (can punish with u-smash) are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK freeze is mostly safe on shield, as is magnet, but PK fire and thunder up close are about as unsafe on shield as Ness's. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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While his bair can spike, it has 15 frames of startup, so possible to hit him with our aerials beforehand. Also note the last hit of his dair will spike. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals besides d-tilt and f-tilt are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by whatever (is -54 on shield and whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward, etc). His landing aerials besides the 4-hit dair (can punish with u-smash) are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK freeze is mostly safe on shield, as is magnet, but PK fire and thunder up close are about as unsafe on shield as Ness's. |
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PK Fire and Thunder are also minus on shield enough for you to dash grab or dash attack if he's nearby (same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %). Just don't shield too much or obviously against them to where he can grab you. |
PK Fire and Thunder are also minus on shield enough for you to dash grab or dash attack if he's nearby (same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %). Just don't shield too much or obviously against them to where he can grab you. |
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* Another way to deal with counters when recovering is holding down which will let you tech it a good bit longer. Holding down can also let you survive untechables which are the red shockwaves when you get knocked against a stage wall, by holding down to reduce your launch speed and then tech as usual, aside from hugging the stage under making it harder for them to off stage counter. Likewise if the opponent's standing at ledge to counter while you're recovering low, try to be as far away from ledge as possible at first when drifting toward it after you up B, allowing you to avoid an obvious counter. They can adapt to this by going slightly off stage to counter, but you can mix them up by using your jumps and airdodge to get to ledge instead. Lastly, if they stale their counter earlier on, it'll still kill much later like with any powerful move. |
* Another way to deal with counters when recovering is holding down which will let you tech it a good bit longer. Holding down can also let you survive untechables which are the red shockwaves when you get knocked against a stage wall, by holding down to reduce your launch speed and then tech as usual, aside from hugging the stage under making it harder for them to off stage counter. Likewise if the opponent's standing at ledge to counter while you're recovering low, try to be as far away from ledge as possible at first when drifting toward it after you up B, allowing you to avoid an obvious counter. They can adapt to this by going slightly off stage to counter, but you can mix them up by using your jumps and airdodge to get to ledge instead. Lastly, if they stale their counter earlier on, it'll still kill much later like with any powerful move. |
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Also, just hitting the tech to prevent stage spike when using vertical up B to recover isn't enough, as Lucina will then up B you back and force you to tech yet again, so what you can do, if you still have a jump, is tech the counter and then nair to hit them away. |
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Lucina uair is big, so you’re not really gonna be able to challenge them with dair or anything. Standard landing methods, where you save and mix up jumps with fastfalls and airdodges. Go to the ledge if you can but don't fall past ledge for an up B. |
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When trying to land, Lucina uair is big, so you’re not really gonna be able to challenge them with dair or anything. Standard landing methods, where you save and mix up jumps with fastfalls and airdodges. Go to the ledge if you can but don't fall past ledge for an up B. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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The main difference from Marth is not having to worry as much about spacing, while Marth has to rely on tippers. They're both floatier than Roy and Chrom though, and will use side B more-so to stall their landing and throw you off, in addition to their neutral B being a more reliable quick shield breaker that lives up to its name, as any hit + neutral B with no charge will break a full shield. If you see it coming, always take the hit instead of shielding it. Also watch for their neutral B as a landing mixup or an option from ledge as a surprise attack. |
The main difference from Marth is not having to worry as much about spacing, while Marth has to rely on tippers. They're both floatier than Roy and Chrom though, and will use side B more-so to stall their landing and throw you off, in addition to their neutral B being a more reliable quick shield breaker that lives up to its name, as any hit + neutral B with no charge will break a full shield. If you see it coming, always take the hit instead of shielding it. Also watch for their neutral B as a landing mixup or an option from ledge as a surprise attack. |
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Lucina & Marth have the fastest walk speed in the game, so don't underestimate their ground movement either. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her 2-hit nair hits us during crouch. If she lands behind us, don't try to punish it OoS, though our nair can hit if their spacing is bad. She can't really act after using nair while airborne, so you can dash back and reverse f-tilt or d-tilt to punish (d-tilt is better for the combo strings), or retreating fair. Good as Lucina nair is, it's still a rising aerial with floaty character, meaning you might be able to whiff punish it with burst options. |
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Her double jump makes her hurtbox shift, so go for nair most of the time instead of chasing with fair or bair. |
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DI up & in against her f-throw or aerials at ledge. After a failed ledge drop fair or SPR, it's important to DI up & in, as you'll be sent off stage. |
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Her f-smash, u-smash, uair, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so always use when up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so always use when up close. |
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Besides her safe d-tilt, her normals are at least punished by our OoS aerials and such. Her landing aerials are too safe though, so reset there. Aside from her neutral B that you shouldn't shield against, her side B hits are various levels of unsafe like with Roy/Chrom. |
Besides her safe d-tilt, her normals are at least punished by our OoS aerials and such. Her landing aerials are too safe though, so reset there. Aside from her neutral B that you shouldn't shield against, her side B hits are various levels of unsafe like with Roy/Chrom. If she whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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Her jab 2, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and side B hits are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Her jab 2, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and side B hits are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-98%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-98%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info, and to Mezcaul on the specifics of her nair and some of our advantage and disadvantage versus her. |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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His dash attack and down B are 5 hits. |
His dash attack and down B are 5 hits. |
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His up B and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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As a mixup, plasma armor can help against Luigi side B by charging neutral B off stage and then can freely dunk him, like if his jump is already used up. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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This matchup will test your spacing. Mario's combo game is extremely powerful at low to mid %, and less dangerous at high %. Mario's many combo starting moves are fast and have low lag, so good spacing is a necessity. |
This matchup will test your spacing. Mario's combo game is extremely powerful at low to mid %, and less dangerous at high %. Mario's many combo starting moves are fast and have low lag, so good spacing is a necessity. |
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In neutral, Mario will try to land aerials out of a shorthop and fastfalling. They generally approach with |
In neutral, Mario will try to land aerials out of a shorthop and fastfalling. They generally approach with shorthop bair which is relatively safe on shield, can crossup, or lead to a potential 0 to death combo. He will also use uair at low % to start a long, potentially deadly chain. Some Mario's will simply spam this move, hoping one lands. It doesn't have much range, so our nair, fair, u-tilt, or f-tilt to beat it. Mario can also use nair to start combos. |
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Similar to Link's nairs and such, Mario's has little lag, is safe on shield, combos into his best moves, and lingers for a good while. The best option to Mario approaching is to back up and use a tilt (i.e. up angle f-tilt) to deny them an advantage. Mario will also use fireball to make you shield, allowing him to grab you and perform a true death combo consisting of d-throw > uair > nair > uair > fastfall uair > fair at very low %. He can also simply combo out of the fireballs themselves with uair. |
Similar to Link's nairs and such, Mario's has little lag, is safe on shield, combos into his best moves, and lingers for a good while. The best option to Mario approaching is to back up and use a tilt (i.e. up angle f-tilt) to deny them an advantage. Mario will also use fireball to make you shield, allowing him to grab you and perform a true death combo consisting of d-throw > uair > nair > uair > fastfall uair > fair at very low %. He can also simply combo out of the fireballs themselves with uair. |
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This is the hard part. Mario's already insane combo game is accented on Ridley's large frame. Getting hit by uair at low % will lead to a 40-50% combo that is virtually inescapable, and the rare times you can airdodge out can be read and punished even harder. |
This is the hard part. Mario's already insane combo game is accented on Ridley's large frame. Getting hit by uair at low % will lead to a 40-50% combo that is virtually inescapable, and the rare times you can airdodge out can be read and punished even harder. |
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Platforms on Battlefield allow Mario to ladder Ridley up to the top blastzone and get a free stock, so definitely avoid this stage. |
Platforms on Battlefield allow Mario to ladder Ridley up to the top blastzone and get a free stock, so definitely avoid this stage. SDI down and away to avoid dying to up B near the top and to maneuver away from Mario's combo. DI upwards to increase the knockback and give yourself more of a chance. |
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Avoid being unsafe on Mario's shield at death % (100 and above), especially from behind since Mario's up smash is his go-to kill move. His head is intangible during the move as well, similar to Ridley up smash. |
Avoid being unsafe on Mario's shield at death % (100 and above), especially from behind since Mario's up smash is his go-to kill move. His head is intangible during the move as well, similar to Ridley up smash. |
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Mario is at a great danger when above Ridley, as his short range cannot help him against Ridley's disjointed u-tilt and u-smash, or nair, fair, and uair. They will usually do an airdodge to return to the ground and reset, which can be easily punished like with an f-smash. |
Mario is at a great danger when above Ridley, as his short range cannot help him against Ridley's disjointed u-tilt and u-smash, or nair, fair, and uair. They will usually do an airdodge to return to the ground and reset, which can be easily punished like with an f-smash. |
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Mario's recovery is only decent, and Ridley nair and fair should be enough to gimp him at 70% and above. His up B is also pretty easy to time with your down angle |
Mario's recovery is only decent, and Ridley nair and fair should be enough to gimp him at 70% and above. His up B is also pretty easy to time with your down angle Wing Blitz or down angle f-tilt. Be aware that they can use cape to stall their recovery and cause you to mistime your attacks. |
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Mario won't stay at the ledge for long and when stuck, will usually jump with a fireball to cover themselves or jump to a platform. Our nair can beat both of these options. Some will drop down and jump up with an aerial, usually uair to start a combo or put you in disadvantage. Either shield and reset or use f |
Mario won't stay at the ledge for long and when stuck, will usually jump with a fireball to cover themselves or jump to a platform. Our nair can beat both of these options. Some will drop down and jump up with an aerial, usually uair to start a combo or put you in disadvantage. Either shield and reset or use f-tilt or d-tilt to out-space Mario. Ridley's f-smash can be used to whiff punish Mario's bair and uair, since Ridley backs up a bit during the move and said aerials have more than enough end lag. |
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Mario's best OoS options- Up B (frame 3), nair (frame 6), uair (frame 7), u-smash (frame 9). |
Mario's best OoS options- Up B (frame 3), nair (frame 6), uair (frame 7), u-smash (frame 9). |
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Like us, Mario's will use turnaround up smash to take stocks. It can be shielded easily but is only punishable with our bair OoS. Use d |
Like us, Mario's will use turnaround up smash to take stocks. It can be shielded easily but is only punishable with our bair OoS. Use d-tilt, f-tilt, fair, and nair to stop Mario from approaching with this option. |
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Mario can B-reverse his cape to ledge trump easily, and can combo it into bair as a kill. Avoid staying on ledge at kill %. |
Mario can B-reverse his cape to ledge trump easily, and can combo it into bair as a kill. Avoid staying on ledge at kill %. |
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Mario's uair > fastfall uair > fair is a common kill confirm at ledge. Don't use unsafe moves on Mario's shield when you're near ledge because this combo works OoS as well at low to mid % (50ish). Also tech his fair when on stage. |
Mario's uair > fastfall uair > fair is a common kill confirm at ledge. Don't use unsafe moves on Mario's shield when you're near ledge because this combo works OoS as well at low to mid % (50ish). Also tech his fair when on stage. |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if Mario is near the ledge, so as to avoid uair > uair > fair (DI in helps to avoid getting hit by the spike hitbox). |
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Can try to escape his ladder combos into up B or dair with SDI down & away. |
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Can try to escape his ladder combos into up B or dair with SDI down & away. With dair particularly, DI down and left/right always contrary to Mario’s drift, as he'll most likely pop you up on the other side. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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While his fair can spike, it has 16 frames of startup, so possible to hit him with aerials beforehand. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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* Placeholder |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (84-87%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-98%) |
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}} |
}} |
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For the Mega Buster or jab/f-tilt/nair, keep in mind he can only shoot three pellets at a time, so block or avoid them and go in, usually from above to avoid. |
For the Mega Buster or jab/f-tilt/nair, keep in mind he can only shoot three pellets at a time, so block or avoid them and go in, usually from above to avoid. |
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When hit by the u-air, don't freak out and jump or you might die early due to how high up it sends you. Otherwise try to airdodge or move around it, holding left stick down and watching out for a followup. |
When hit by the u-air, don't freak out and jump or you might die early due to how high up it sends you. Otherwise try to airdodge or move around it, holding left stick down and watching out for a followup. This uair we can actually get through with Ridley dair if timed right, though with the end lag, he'll most likely be able to punish after, but can consider doing it as a mixup. |
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Respect the Metal Blade by shielding or avoiding the z-drops and such, and if you grab it, you can throw it back at him for some damage. |
Respect the Metal Blade by shielding or avoiding the z-drops and such, and if you grab it, you can throw it back at him for some damage. |
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For Leaf Shield, either pull up your own shield like when he’s landing with it (be sure you don't drop it too early and hold all the way to the end of the move), or jump over it when he throws it. If he jumps up and throws the leaves, then can run underneath and punish him. In our case there's also trying to jump and Plasma which if nothing else can bait him to throw it before you land, but stay in the air long enough with your jumps either way. Our dair can surprisingly hit him through the Leaf Shield too. |
For Leaf Shield, either pull up your own shield like when he’s landing with it (be sure you don't drop it too early and hold all the way to the end of the move), or jump over it when he throws it. If he jumps up and throws the leaves, then can run underneath and punish him. In our case there's also trying to jump and Plasma which if nothing else can bait him to throw it before you land, but stay in the air long enough with your jumps either way. Our dair can surprisingly hit him through the Leaf Shield too. |
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Also, Leaf Shield is not safe on shield; the window when Mega Man starts to throw it and when he can act again is 55 frames. Start by tilting your shield forward and up to prevent poking, wait for the throw, and punish. A good Mega Man will dash away and throw it from a distance to prevent OoS punishes, but you can counter that by fullhopping during his retreat to avoid the throw and punish with a landing aerial. Now if they expect this, they can jump and toss the LF to stuff out your fullhop, but your answer to that as mentioned is dash in under and anti-air him. When stuck on the ledge, LF loses to getup attack. |
Also, Leaf Shield is not safe on shield; the window when Mega Man starts to throw it and when he can act again is 55 frames. Start by tilting your shield forward and up to prevent poking, wait for the throw, and punish. A good Mega Man will dash away and throw it from a distance to prevent OoS punishes, but you can counter that by fullhopping during his retreat to avoid the throw and punish with a landing aerial. Now if they expect this, they can jump and toss the LF to stuff out your fullhop, but your answer to that as mentioned is dash in under and anti-air him. When stuck on the ledge, LF loses to getup attack. He can also cancel LF by picking up items such as his Metal Blade, in which the leaves still make him mostly invulnerable when picking up an item though, so respect it. |
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You also need to respect his up tilt for the power it has. It has a lot of end lag though, so take advantage and punish if you shield or avoid and it whiffs. Don't let him place his Rush Coil below you when you respawn. Use the few seconds of your respawn invincibility to pressure him when possible. Also remember his d-tilt slide & spinning dash attack and shield them, and remember both can crossup shield which you can punish with a quick turnaround attack. Don't play on auto pilot here. |
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You also need to respect his up tilt for the power it has. It has a lot of end lag though, so take advantage and punish if you shield or avoid and it whiffs. Don't let him place his Rush Coil below you when you respawn. Use the few seconds of your respawn invincibility to pressure him when possible. Also remember his d-tilt slide & spinning DA and shield them, and remember both can crossup shield which you can punish with a quick turnaround attack. Don't play on auto pilot here. |
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Once you get in through his wall of projectiles, or if you cross him up and land behind him, he struggles, so attack/combo and keep up the pressure. His f-smash, while powerful, lacks knockback and is laggy and reactable, and if he ledge traps you with it, just do a ledge jump over it and attack. Gimp him depending on his recovery pattern. |
Once you get in through his wall of projectiles, or if you cross him up and land behind him, he struggles, so attack/combo and keep up the pressure. His f-smash, while powerful, lacks knockback and is laggy and reactable, and if he ledge traps you with it, just do a ledge jump over it and attack. Gimp him depending on his recovery pattern. |
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Like other zoners, Battlefield is preferable to fight Mega Man on, though, beware of his up air especially on the top platform. |
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In general, you want to hold center stage and be very disciplined in shield. One aspect of pellet counterplay is paying attention to the rhythm that they tap A at, which tells you when you can punish or when you should keep shielding, since they can mix up their timings a lot. Also recognize situations where he has to expose himself with up B off stage, and remember to walk; walk & shield is crucial in this matchup, until you get in range for d-tilt or f-tilt, or till they run out of space, and when you get them off stage, you need to put pressure and try to kill him. Be patient in neutral, find your window, and if you get it, never let him do anything, try to make sure he never resets neutral and dies. Be careful with his dair that gives him some stall in his air to protect his landing and mix up his landing time. |
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Respect not only side B but Metal Blade as an anti-edgeguard as well. Although his projectiles lose to plasma outside of f-smash, he doesn't give you a lot of opportunities to charge it, and doesn’t stay in its threat range very long. He has that same Kazuya problem of having to recover high and airdodge into the ledge in a lot of situations, and that's where you can get your earliest kills. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Mega Man up tilt has intangibility on frames 5-7 (at the beginning of the move before he ascends as well as some moves confirming into it if timed right) and d-tilt has intangibility on the leg during frames 3-12. You’ll want to shield the latter anyway though as mentioned, punishing if it crosses you up. Said d-tilt has a 40% chance of tripping on hit as well. |
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If Mega Man players overshoot with Crash Bomb, you can tipper f-tilt to detonate it and make your own ledgetrap out of it when he tries to recover. That happens when he attaches it to the ledge but not directly underneath it. The more you play against Mega Man, the more you realize how often he has to do what Snake and ROB do where they give up and go high instead of playing the ledge game, except unlike Snake, MM has actual good landing mixups that aren't immediately easy to contest. |
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Also, MM’s uair we can get through with Ridley dair if timed right, though with the end lag, MM will most likely be able to punish after, but can consider doing it as a mixup. |
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Mega Man from a distance you can use plasma pretty well against on stage; if you get the ability to charge it, he'll just have to jump or shield because it eats all of his projectiles and won’t get the chance to use f-smash, giving you a good window. While he may seem like a zoner as mentioned, he's arguably more of a wall that tries to stay close to you, making plasma good when he wants to be campy where he poses less of a threat. |
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One other thing about Leaf Shield, he can cancel it by picking up items such as his Metal Blade. The leaves still make him mostly invulnerable when picking up an item though, so respect it. |
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You only have to be careful about jump metal blade, but a platform or just being too far away will solve this. Leaf shield is the only counter, but it's punishable; just release plasma early and punish when he has to release it. Either get a hit if you time it well and don't let yourself get hit by it, or you take his stage which is great against Mega Man. Still, only use plasma if he's far, or you'll get lemon'd. He prefers to lemon at mid range which is where you'll want to f-tilt or d-tilt him. |
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Some other things for Mega Man: Hold center and be very disciplined in shield. Recognize situations where he has to expose himself with up B off stage. |
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Respect not only side B but Metal Blade as an anti-edgeguard as well. Although his projectiles lose to plasma outside of f-smash, he doesn't give you a lot of opportunities to charge it, and doesn’t stay in its threat range very long. He has that same Kazuya problem of having to recover high and airdodge into the ledge in a lot of situations, and that's where you can get your earliest kills. |
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In disadvantage, you gotta SDI out when he has you in metal blade stuff and general combos because while it still leads to combos, it might just save your life, especially if you can get things like the up tilt to miss in certain combos. Also, don't panic when he lemons successfully; he'll look for the panic options when you get out of hitstun. Whenever you get killed and drop the platform, don't let yourself get hit by side B; same for when he puts you in a tech chase, so don't techroll toward him if further away. |
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If MM players overshoot with Crash Bomb, you can tipper f-tilt to detonate it and make your own ledgetrap out of it when he tries to recover. That happens when he attaches it to the ledge but not directly underneath it. The more you play against MM, the more you realize how often he has to do what Snake and ROB do where they give up and go high instead of playing the ledge game, except unlike Snake, MM has actual good landing mixups that aren't immediately easy to contest. |
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Something to note on Mega Man's up B, it only goes one direction and becomes a moving target as soon as the invincibility (on frames 7-10) runs out, so he takes damage fast in that situation. It's a similar deal to Sonic's up B, except MM travels slower with his and is easier to react to. He also requires more time to act out of it. Our dair can work on it as a mixup. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Mega Man from a distance you can use plasma pretty well against on stage; if you get the ability to charge it, he'll just have to jump or shield because it eats all of his projectiles and won’t get the chance to use f-smash, giving you a good window. MM may seem like a zoner but he's arguably more of a wall that tries to stay close to you, making plasma good when he wants to be campy where he poses less of a threat. |
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Like other zoners, Battlefield is preferable to fight Mega Man on, though, beware of his up air especially on the top platform. |
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Mega Man up tilt has intangibility on frames 5-7 (at the beginning of the move before he ascends as well as some moves confirming into it if timed right) and d-tilt has intangibility on the leg during frames 3-12. You’ll want to shield the latter anyway though as mentioned, punishing if it crosses you up. Said d-tilt has a 40% chance of tripping on hit as well. |
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You only have to be careful about jump metal blade, but a platform or just being too far away will solve this. Leaf shield is the only counter, but it's punishable; just release plasma early and punish when he has to release it. Either get a hit if you time it well and don't let yourself get hit by it, or you take his stage which is amazing against MM. |
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Something to note on Mega Man's up B, it only goes one direction and becomes a moving target as soon as the invincibility (on frames 7-10) runs out, so he takes damage fast in that situation. It's a similar deal to Sonic's up B, except Mega Man travels slower with his and is easier to react to. He also requires more time to act out of it. Our dair can work on it as a mixup. |
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Fire sword f-air is the safe aerial, so reset when shielding it. Can mostly punish the 3 hit bair however where he briefly turns around for the attack. Also when shielding his dair, reset with how safe it is. Ridley nair/fair clanks well with lemons. They're -25 > -23 > -20, but can still shield drop d-tilt as a true punish. MM can grab while Leaf Shield is active. |
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Mega Man multihits- Crossup dash attack (8 hits), u-smash (7 hits), uair under a plat (7 hits) |
Mega Man multihits- Crossup dash attack (8 hits), u-smash (7 hits), uair under a plat (7 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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If you throw metal blade at Mega Man as he does lemons (specifically, metal blade connects with the hitbox close to his blaster), it actually puts him in clank lag. That said, metal blade loses to the pellets themselves, but if it's close enough to him it makes him clank and gives us a punish. |
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Also, remember to walk. Walk & shield is crucial in this MU, till you get in range for d-tilt or f-tilt, or till they run out of space, and when you get them off stage, you need to put pressure and try to kill him. |
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Mega Man has a low shorthop, making it extra important to anti-air or d-tilt if timed well. |
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It's really tough, and you gotta SDI out when he has you in metal blade stuff and general combos because while it still leads to combos, it might just save your life, especially if you can get things like the u-tilt to miss in certain combos. |
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His u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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To clarify on plasma, only use if he's far, or you'll get lemon'd. He prefers to lemon at mid range which is where you'll want to f/d-tilt him. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Don't panic when he lemons successfully; he'll look for the panic options when you get out of hitstun. Also whenever you get killed and drop the platform, don't let yourself get hit by side B. Same for when he puts you in a tech chase, so don't techroll toward him if further away. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Be patient in neutral, find your window, and if you get it, never let him do anything, try to make sure he never resets neutral and dies. Be careful with his dair that gives him some stall in his air to protect his landing as well as mix up his landing time, etc. |
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Fire sword f-air is the safe aerial, so reset when shielding it. Can mostly punish the 3 hit bair however where he briefly turns around for the attack. Also when shielding his dair, reset with how safe it is. Ridley nair/fair clanks well with lemons. They're -25 > -23 > -20, but can still shield drop d-tilt as a true punish. MM can grab while Leaf Shield is active. |
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Mega Man's jab/f-tilt/nair is punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab if shielded up close. His u-tilt and d-tilt have enough end lag to be punished by f-smash when shielded (or u-smash OoS for the u-tilt before he lands), tho have to turnaround f-smash (or shorthop turnaround skewer OoS) for d-tilt due to its ability to crossup. His u-smash and d-smash when shielded can also be punished by Rid f-smash, while dash attack is punished by our OoS aerials or Rid u-smash due to it being able to crossup too. MM d-smash is even skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback. |
Mega Man's jab/f-tilt/nair is punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab if shielded up close, and our jab 1 comes out before his. His u-tilt and d-tilt have enough end lag to be punished by f-smash when shielded (or u-smash OoS for the u-tilt before he lands), tho have to turnaround f-smash (or shorthop turnaround skewer OoS) for d-tilt due to its ability to crossup. His u-smash and d-smash when shielded can also be punished by Rid f-smash, while dash attack is punished by our OoS aerials or Rid u-smash due to it being able to crossup too. MM d-smash is even skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback. |
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His jab/f-tilt/nair, crossup d-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack are also u-tilt punishable on shield should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab/f-tilt/nair, crossup d-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack are also u-tilt punishable on shield should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-105%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-105%) |
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Major credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips, |
Major credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips, Zant for the neutral tips along with the use of plasma, and CheeseCapo for the finding on metal blade clanking with pellets if it gets to him up close. |
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Some metal blade item labbing- |
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https://x.com/ClipartCriminal/status/1370275545087369217 |
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}} |
}} |
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MK has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
MK has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
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MK uair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His neutral B and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, while his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, except for his d-tilt and f-smash; after shielding his f-smash, he may go for a d-smash or something after that you can punish. MK u-smash and maybe side B is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
His rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, while his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, except for his d-tilt and f-smash; after shielding his f-smash, he may go for a d-smash or something after that you can punish. MK u-smash and maybe side B is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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Shadow Ball's wavy movement can make it hard to dodge, and fully charge usually hits you at ledge, so don't hang there too long. Don't forget the movement mixups and B-reverses too. Even uncharged shots can lead to combos, so be ready to shield, jump, or dodge; jumping usually being the best option. |
Shadow Ball's wavy movement can make it hard to dodge, and fully charge usually hits you at ledge, so don't hang there too long. Don't forget the movement mixups and B-reverses too. Even uncharged shots can lead to combos, so be ready to shield, jump, or dodge; jumping usually being the best option. |
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Be careful of plasma with its side B reflector in mind, which can also aid its recovery. Is also a command grab; when you get flipped by it, can attack, airdodge/tech, or jump. Is an RPS situation to try and get away from what you think Mewtwo will do. |
Be careful of plasma with its side B reflector in mind, which can also aid its recovery. Is also a command grab; when you get flipped by it, can attack, airdodge/tech, or jump. Is an RPS situation to try and get away from what you think Mewtwo will do. Can try to airdodge through if Mewtwo does a fair, but will be more likely to get us since Ridley's a big body. If Mewtwo holds still to punish airdodge, then attack instead, and if Mewtwo spaces back to avoid your attack and punish, then better off jumping away and getting back to neutral. You're typically not gonna be able to react to all this though, so catch on to Mewtwo's habits. Also remember if Confusion whiffs, you'll have 44 frames to punish with something, so there is a risk to them throwing it out in neutral. |
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Keep Disable in mind and don't be too predictable near Mewtwo. If used in the air, it knocks you back without stunning, and now has intangibility on frames 10-16, so can be used to beat out attacks if timed right. Also watch out if Mewtwo does a tech followed by down B, so you don't get reversaled during a tech chase (is a 16 frame startup). |
Keep Disable in mind and don't be too predictable near Mewtwo. If used in the air, it knocks you back without stunning, and now has intangibility on frames 10-16, so can be used to beat out attacks if timed right. Also watch out if Mewtwo does a tech followed by down B, so you don't get reversaled during a tech chase (is a 16 frame startup). |
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If Mewtwo does side B off stage to turn itself around (with its back facing you), it means they'll do a rising bair to get on stage with. |
If Mewtwo does side B off stage to turn itself around (with its back facing you), it means they'll do a rising bair to get on stage with. |
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Confusion also combos after ~90%. DI out to avoid a Mewtwo d-throw followup. A lot of its other combos start with an upward attack and continues on with a rising double jump aerial. |
Confusion also combos after ~90%, potentially allowing for a f-air kill followup after ~110%. DI out to avoid a Mewtwo d-throw followup. A lot of its other combos start with an upward attack and continues on with a rising double jump aerial. |
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D-smash, aside from its shield safety, also has relatively low end lag, meaning it can be used as a bait. Mewtwo loves to use Teleport to escape the corner of a stage, so keep in mind. |
D-smash, aside from its shield safety, also has relatively low end lag, meaning it can be used as a bait. Mewtwo loves to use Teleport to escape the corner of a stage, so keep in mind. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Its d-smash and dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Its d-smash and dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full shadow ball, since our hurtbox is still big enough to be hit by it. |
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Mewtwo multihits: nair (6 hits), u-smash (4 hits) |
Mewtwo multihits: nair (6 hits), u-smash (4 hits) |
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Respect its ledge getup attack range. |
Respect its ledge getup attack range. |
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Their u-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed geutp. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B 1 (Soaring Axe Kick) and up B 3 (Thrust Uppercut) recoveries, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Brawler is the lightest of the Mii's and we easily outrange it, though note the intangibility on its u-smash. |
Brawler is the lightest of the Mii's and we easily outrange it, though note the intangibility on its u-smash. |
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Brawler multihits- fair (2 hits), Flashing Mach Punch (22 hits), Onslaught (8 hits), Helicopter Kick and Thrust Uppercut (6 hits) |
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Its fair is 2 hits. |
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Soaring axe kick (rising) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their smashes, Flashing Mach Punch, Onslaught (grounded or landing), and Burning Dropdick are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Brawler can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note that Soaring Axe Kick and Head-On Assault will spike aerial opponents when descending, as well as Feint Jump spiking on its own with the kick a la Zero Suit Samus. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case. Brawler's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while its f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback, and its d-smash & feint jump kick are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air. If they whiff a counter throw nearby, skewer punish. |
Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case. Brawler's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while its f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback, and its d-smash & feint jump kick are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air. If they whiff a counter throw nearby, skewer punish. |
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Brawler specials: Shot Put is -19 on shield up close. Flashing Mach Punch |
Brawler specials: Shot Put is -19 on shield up close. Flashing Mach Punch is -30 on shield, so can f-smash in response. Burning Drop Kick is -30 on shield, while the Cloud up B esque Soaring Axe Kick is -23 on shield (watch out for at ledge). Feint Jump is like ZSS Flip Jump, with the kick at the end being -27 on shield, so can punish if you react quick enough. |
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Every other special is too safe on shield mostly, so reset when it comes to them; also respect Exploding Side Kick (dodge it like you would Falcon Punch), Onslaught (dodge it too preferably, though can still shield it but reset after), Helicopter Kick & its leg intangibility (may be used as horizontal recovery), Suplex command grab (watch out for at ledge), Head-On Assault that's like Yoshi & Bowser down B which you want to dodge, and Counter Throw if they have those. |
Every other special is too safe on shield mostly, so reset when it comes to them; also respect Exploding Side Kick (dodge it like you would Falcon Punch), Onslaught (dodge it too preferably, though can still shield it but reset after), Helicopter Kick & its leg intangibility (may be used as horizontal recovery), Suplex command grab (watch out for at ledge), Head-On Assault that's like Yoshi & Bowser down B which you want to dodge, and Counter Throw if they have those. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B 1 (Lunar Launch) & up B 3 (Arm Rocket) recoveries, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Gunner multihits- jab 3 (2 hits), f-smash (7 hits), uair (7 hits) |
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Gunner has one of the slowest dash and run speeds in the game, so can also use your ground speed to your advantage here. |
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If they have Charge Blast, don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full charge shot, since our hurtbox is likely still big enough to be hit by it. |
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Gunner multihits- jab 3 (2 hits), f-smash (7 hits), uair (7 hits), Cannon Jump Kick (2 hits) |
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Gunner up smash hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 6 to 9 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their f-smash and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out nine frames faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, our dair comes out six frames faster than their uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup, though only do so with the right timing and if you're confident it'll hit. Also note that Cannon Jump Kick's explosion will spike aerial opponents. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before theirs. |
Our jab 1 comes out before theirs, so always use in close range. |
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Gunner's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and f-smash if you happen to shield up close is punished by our own. Its jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air, especially since Gunner's a floaty. |
Gunner's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and f-smash if you happen to shield up close is punished by our own. Its jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air, especially since Gunner's a floaty. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Chakram (weak hit) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 frames of hitlag for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Swordfighter multihits- u-smash (2 hits), fair (3 hits), dair (4 hits), Blurring Blade (6 hits), Skyward Slash Dash ( |
Swordfighter multihits- u-smash (2 hits), fair (3 hits), dair (4 hits), Blurring Blade (6 hits), Skyward Slash Dash (7 hits), Hero's Spin air (5 hits) |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note that Stone Scabbard will spike during its descent. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Their smashes, Blurring Blade, Airborne Assault, Skyward Slash Dash, and Hero's Spin (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before theirs. |
Our jab 1 comes out before theirs, so always use in close range. |
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Swordfighter's normals besides d-tilt are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer punishable (shorthop skewer OoS specifically) with shield pushback. Its jab 3 & d-smash are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge GUA are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. If they whiff a blade counter nearby, skewer punish. |
Swordfighter's normals besides d-tilt are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer punishable (shorthop skewer OoS specifically) with shield pushback. Its jab 3 & d-smash are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge GUA are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. If they whiff a blade counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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Line 2,481: | Line 2,887: | ||
She can't |
She can't over-commit too much in neutral because any smash attack is punishable by our dash attack, side B, or f-smash after shielding. Her 2 frame on us is inconsistent with how it beats WB and in general Ridley can end her stock consistently with a neutral win or two. |
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Other than that, just mix up your approaches so she'll whiff her smash attacks and you can punish often. Her disadvantage is bad like our own and she has slow fall speed, making her prone to getting juggled ( |
Other than that, just mix up your approaches so she'll whiff her smash attacks and you can punish often. Her disadvantage is bad like our own and she has slow fall speed, making her prone to getting juggled (though remember her dair), so combo as much as you can once you start to get an opening. She has a tether recovery and as such will mainly try to recover vertically, but with her slow air speed, she's easy to gimp in addition to being vulnerable to CLS (crouch ledge slip) nair/fair before she pulls herself in with her tether, or if she tethers a little high, can jump plasma/SPR & drag down followed by jump release. Her ledge jump leaves her vulnerable too. On stages with platforms which you'll want to play her on when you get the chance, you can plasma her at times before she's in position to attack with arms. |
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Can also dash shield & shield jump/Double Shield Cancel fullhop to close the gap. If she does a tilt/smash while you're shielding, can jump OoS toward her before the 2nd hit comes out and punish. Dash shielding also makes her moves unsafely spaced. |
Can also dash shield & shield jump/Double Shield Cancel fullhop to close the gap. If she does a tilt/smash while you're shielding, can jump OoS toward her before the 2nd hit comes out and punish. Dash shielding also makes her moves unsafely spaced. |
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Be aware of what arm she's using when doing an off stage edgeguard on her. Going above or below Ramram to edgeguard works and being observant in general to her disadvantage and pushing in instead of retreating & giving her more room to breathe. Don't get greedy though if she still has plenty resources to recover with. If you can't reliably edgeguard her yet, just stay on stage for a ledgetrap and do your best to not get grabbed (her b-throw kill & b-throw > dragon smash and all). Also watch out for ledge drop f-smash where she either goes from ledge to stage or regrabs ledge, and shield that. |
Be aware of what arm she's using when doing an off stage edgeguard on her. Going above or below Ramram to edgeguard works and being observant in general to her disadvantage and pushing in instead of retreating & giving her more room to breathe. Don't get greedy though if she still has plenty resources to recover with. If you can't reliably edgeguard her yet, just stay on stage for a ledgetrap and do your best to not get grabbed (her b-throw kill & b-throw > dragon smash and all). Also watch out for ledge drop f-smash where she either goes from ledge to stage or regrabs ledge, and shield that. |
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For more specific things to look out for, neutral will mostly a guess game about how to go through arms. Know that you can react to her throwing an arm: |
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In f-tilt animation, be aware of the moment where she puts her elbow back and then throws the arm. Be ready to shield the moment you see it. You want her to throw both arms on your shield. If she does, she cant do anything but jump or walk. This allows you the time to do a dash in roughly half a stage length, then immediately shield, react, and pressure mid range. If she whiffs too close, you can dash nair or dash attack too. |
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Mixups to be aware of in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage: |
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* She can throw an arm low and then high to cover jumps, but you can roll in to avoid the 2nd one and get closer. |
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* If she throws just one arm and wait, she then can’t catch fullhop, though only if he sends ramram out first. |
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* When she's getting off stage, edgeguard her if he already if far enough. Otherwise set up fireballs, but be sure to not position yourself on the same horizontal line to avoid arm reversals. |
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* When you're getting off stage, the only way you can avoid edgeguard is to recover as low as possible (pick maps with low blastzones). Save your jumps if possible and mixup your up B timing, that way she’ll struggle with dragon laser 2-frames. |
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* When being ledgetrapped, the only way you have to be afraid of getting your ledghang hit is when she's charging ramram or dragon’s f-smash (she can with f-tilt but the spacing is hard and obvious). |
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* If she starts charging f-smash, you can ledge jump airdodge but to avoid ramram, mixup with ledge neutral getup > shield to bait timing. Don’t try reversal options, it just doesn’t work. Also don't try airdodging to ledge which is equally unreliable in this matchup. |
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* At close range, she’ll likely try to d-tilt slide. There’s not much you can directly do if it cross up. Just remember to try and jab her at close range before she gets the chance. |
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* At various frames during her neutral & up B. |
* At various frames during her neutral & up B. |
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Her f-tilt (minus ramram), megawatt f-smash, u-smash, d-smash, and up B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers. The rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash are punished by Rid f-smash when shielded up close (the latter two also by shorthop skewer OoS with shield pushback), as are her f-tilt and f-smash variants. Her u-smash may even be skewer punishable with shield pushback. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
Our jab 1 comes out before hers. The rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash are punished by Rid f-smash when shielded up close (the latter two also by shorthop skewer OoS with shield pushback), as are her f-tilt and f-smash variants. Her u-smash may even be skewer punishable with shield pushback. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (95-116%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (95-116%) |
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Credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips. |
Credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips, and major credit to Human on the specific neutral, advantage, and disadvantage things to look out for. |
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Proof of concept for colliding with Min-Min's hitboxes- |
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https://x.com/hellspike311/status/1541055757071699969 |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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G&W nair can shield poke even a full health shield, so shield tilt often. |
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G&W fair and dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid them there. |
G&W fair and dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid them there. |
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U-smash has full body invincibility on frames 21-25. Up B is invincible on frames 5-13. |
U-smash has full body invincibility on frames 21-25. Up B is invincible on frames 5-13. |
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Ridley's sour fair on shield has gaps which allows it to catch certain OoS options like G&W up B. Only go for if you think he'll up B OoS though, since sour fair is not safe on shield. |
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Dash attack will beat Mr. Game & Watch's shorthop if spaced. |
Dash attack will beat Mr. Game & Watch's shorthop if spaced. |
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Line 2,616: | Line 3,059: | ||
G&W multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), nair (4 hits), bair (3-4 hits) |
G&W multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), nair (4 hits), bair (3-4 hits) |
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Judge requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 29 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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His d-tilt is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a frame faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ness can stall with magnet and PK flash to slow his fall and give him time for mixups. Both can be challenged with fair if abused, so keep an eye for their habits. Magnet is much harder to punish since it’s faster and can be cancelled sooner, so you’ll likely have to punish what he does after. Flash is pretty reactable; be aware of the giant killing hitbox and go below and hit with fair. |
Ness can stall with magnet and PK flash to slow his fall and give him time for mixups. Both can be challenged with fair if abused, so keep an eye for their habits. Magnet is much harder to punish since it’s faster and can be cancelled sooner, so you’ll likely have to punish what he does after. Flash is pretty reactable; be aware of the giant killing hitbox and go below and hit with fair. |
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2-framing his recovery is also viable. Just be aware that the first 10 frames of his active up B are invincible and if he holds down for a second, he can grab ledge during these |
2-framing his recovery is also viable. Just be aware that the first 10 frames of his active up B are invincible and if he holds down for a second, he can grab ledge during these invulnerability frames and bypass his 2-frame (similar to Ridley, expect completely invincible). |
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For juggling, Ness is a |
For juggling, Ness is a slowfaller, so by design his landing is harder than most. Double jump is slow but goes really high, be aware that Ness can moon jump away/over you if you let him. Since his airdodge goes super far, it can be hard to chase at times. He can fake going to a lower platform, then airdodge to top platform. |
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Ness lacks great aerials to land with. Dair is slow and not great and fair is unsafe. Bair is his best for landing, safe but slowish in startup. Ness can also use PK Fire to land. Keep this in mind, especially near platforms where it can be landed with and be safe. |
Ness lacks great aerials to land with. Dair is slow and not great and fair is unsafe. Bair is his best for landing, safe but slowish in startup. Ness can also use PK Fire to land. Keep this in mind, especially near platforms where it can be landed with and be safe. |
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Ness dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
Ness dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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We avoid his fair from ledge by crouching. Otherwise with Ness fair, can spot-dodge the 2nd hit onward to make the full move whiff, and like any aerial, Ness fair is less safe when used rising (-15), so we can punish a rising fair final hit crossup with up-smash. |
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We avoid his fair from ledge by crouching. |
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Instead of doing an OoS option on the 2nd hit of Ness dash attack, if you shield drop instead, the final hit will whiff due to intangibility on Ridley's tail. It doesn't work when fully spaced though (that said, can nair OoS a spaced dash attack to make the final hit whiff), but when the shield drop method does work, you can get a guaranteed grab or nair punish unlike shield grab or nair OoS in this instance, as well as being able to use any tilt move. There's also parrying the multi-hits of dash attack to make punishing it a little easier. |
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Ness multihits- DA (3 hits), fair (4 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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SDI is still the best way of getting out of PK Fire fast, with either mash or flick SDI being sufficient, but dash walk SDI can also work. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out seven frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ness multihits- Dash attack (3 hits), fair (4 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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Ness's normals besides d-tilt and dash attack are at least punished by nair OoS, while his u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. His dash attack will cross you up a bit when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly. His landing aerials besides maybe fair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK Flash is also safe on shield, while his other three specials are at least punished by nair OoS when shielded up close. |
Ness's normals besides d-tilt and dash attack are at least punished by nair OoS, while his u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. His dash attack will cross you up a bit when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly. His landing aerials besides maybe fair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK Flash is also safe on shield, while his other three specials are at least punished by nair OoS when shielded up close. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (90-100%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (90-100%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info, and credit to Kyoki on the shield drop against Ness dash attack bit as well as the other parts on dealing with Ness fair. |
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Plasma armor can help against Ness’s recovery hitbox by charging neutral B off stage, and then you can freely dunk him. It requires stuffing his jump and sending him far out though. |
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https://x.com/acroraptor/status/1848005177086713931?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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}} |
}} |
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Olimar's grab is fast, and its length depends on which Pikmin is used, white being the longest. If he grabs with blue, his up throw can KO. |
Olimar's grab is fast, and its length depends on which Pikmin is used, white being the longest. If he grabs with blue, his up throw can KO. |
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When he's without Pikmin, he needs space to summon some, so don't give him the chance and lay on the pressure. He can still use jab, tilts, and nair without them, but no grabs. |
When he's without Pikmin, he needs space to summon some, so don't give him the chance and lay on the pressure. He can still use jab, tilts, and nair without them, but no grabs. Although he can pluck Pikmin rather quickly, he can only do so when on the ground and there is usually enough time to punish Olimar if he doesn't secure his space before gaining more Pikmin. Thus, he's at his greatest disadvantage if you manage to keep him airborne and within his space due to the very short range and limited scope of his non-Pikmin attacks, which is partially where our d-tilt comes into play. |
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Conversely, his recovery becomes noticeably worse when he has Pikmin due to their varying weights, so he may have to resort to casting them aside if it improves his chances of recovering safely, thus ridding himself of major defenses. |
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Olimar multihits- u-tilt (6 hits), dash attack (2 hits), nair (5 hits) |
Olimar multihits- u-tilt (6 hits), dash attack (2 hits), nair (5 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His fair, bair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, and some Pikmin smashes (see UFD for which) are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, but his other normals are too safe. His landing fair & bair are also too safe shield, so reset. His landing nair we punish with our own OoS though, while his dair we can u-smash since he's floaty. His DA is shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his ledge getup attack (-27) is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
His u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, and some Pikmin smashes (see UFD for which) are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, but his other normals are too safe. His landing fair & bair are also too safe shield, so reset. His landing nair we punish with our own OoS though, while his dair we can u-smash since he's floaty. His DA is shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his ledge getup attack (-27) is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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* 1 f-smash |
* 1 f-smash |
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* 1 d-smash |
* 1 d-smash |
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* 1 u-smash (with your back turned against it) |
* 1 u-smash (with your back turned against it which can also hit Pac standing on it) |
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* nair x2 |
* nair x2 |
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* fair x2 |
* fair x2 |
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Line 2,810: | Line 3,288: | ||
* Plasma Breath, half charged |
* Plasma Breath, half charged |
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* 1 forward or down angle Wing Blitz |
* 1 forward or down angle Wing Blitz |
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If Pac's standing behind hydrant and shielding, any of our moves that one-shot hydrant will make hydrant hit him via shield poking. |
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Also be aware of what angle the moves send the hydrant since Pac has punish options when his opponent destroys it. Try to send it at an angle that hits him in the process. |
Also be aware of what angle the moves send the hydrant since Pac has punish options when his opponent destroys it. Try to send it at an angle that hits him in the process. |
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Pac has intangibility on u-tilt. |
Pac has intangibility on u-tilt. |
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Respect his ledge getup attack range; not quite as long as ours, but still has pretty good reach. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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While Pac's dash attack is too safe on shield to be punished at all, you can at least fullhop OoS in between hits, creating a neutral reset. |
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Use retreating nair to get away from Pac grabs and catching fruits more like OoS. |
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Use retreating nair to get away from Pac grabs and catching fruits more, like OoS. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a frame faster than Pac hydrant in startup, so do it if you see it coming when he's above you off stage. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Pac's normals besides u-tilt & 4-hit dash attack are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while d-smash when shielded close is punished by Rid f-smash. Pac f-smash & ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset. Side B is punished on shield by f/d-smash. His jab 3, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Pac's normals besides u-tilt & 4-hit dash attack are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while d-smash when shielded close is punished by Rid f-smash. Pac f-smash & ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset. Side B is punished on shield by f/d-smash. His jab 3, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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* Don't wait to u-tilt when he's anywhere above you because of hydrant, though if you expect it, can dodge and whiff punish Pac with u-tilt. |
* Don't wait to u-tilt when he's anywhere above you because of hydrant, though if you expect it, can dodge and whiff punish Pac with u-tilt. |
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Major credit to Hyuchurn on additional info for hydrant and fruits, as well as the specifics on ledgetrapping & edgeguarding, neutral, and Pac Man's gimmick setups. Also credit to Paco on stage platform specifics against Pac Man and additional info on the trampoline at ledge setup & how you can use trampoline against Pac Man when edgeguarding. |
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Pac-Man item labbing with Ridley- |
Pac-Man item labbing with Ridley- |
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https://x.com/Nagare_K1/status/1227470728615931905 |
https://x.com/Nagare_K1/status/1227470728615931905 |
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Major credit to Hyuchurn on additional info for hydrant and fruits, as well as the specifics on ledgetrapping & edgeguarding, neutral, and Pac Man's gimmick setups. Also credit to Paco on stage platform specifics against Pac Man and additional info on the trampoline at ledge setup & how you can use trampoline against Pac Man when edgeguarding. |
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}} |
}} |
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* Her dash attack and bair have invincibility on the left arm due to that being where the shield on her body is. Said invincibility lasts from frames 5-16 (towards the end of DA) and 7-10 respectively, so not the whole duration. With that said, our spaced fair can beat out her bair due to being a multi-hit, and it clanks with her auto-reticle entirely if timed right. |
* Her dash attack and bair have invincibility on the left arm due to that being where the shield on her body is. Said invincibility lasts from frames 5-16 (towards the end of DA) and 7-10 respectively, so not the whole duration. With that said, our spaced fair can beat out her bair due to being a multi-hit, and it clanks with her auto-reticle entirely if timed right. |
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In most matchups, Palu nair is primarily used for calling out jumps, but she'll get much more use out of it against Ridley since he's so tall. The most significant difference with this matchup is that it becomes a very good OoS option, when it is usually quite bad in other matchups. The best counterplay for nair is literally just to shield it. Make sure you shield all the multihits like with Byleth's. If she lands in front of you, should usually be able to punish with our own nair or shield grab. Up smash and nair should also cover if she crosses up on you, so it's probably wisest to just stick to nair OoS. If you do get hit by her nair, just do your best to SDI out of it. Is hard, but doable. |
In most matchups, Palu nair is primarily used for calling out jumps, but she'll get much more use out of it against Ridley since he's so tall. The most significant difference with this matchup is that it becomes a very good OoS option, when it is usually quite bad in other matchups. The best counterplay for nair is literally just to shield it. Make sure you shield all the multihits (7 hits total) like with any similar looking nair's such as Byleth's. If she lands in front of you, should usually be able to punish with our own nair or shield grab. Up smash and nair should also cover if she crosses up on you, so it's probably wisest to just stick to nair OoS. If you do get hit by her nair, just do your best to SDI out of it. Is hard, but doable. |
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Otherwise bait and punish; catch landings (keep in mind she may do things like auto-reticle or counter as a landing mixup), whiff punish her laggy moves, etc. Ledgetrap her (particularly with nair & f-tilt, and to a lesser extent plasma, up smash, and d-smash) rather than edgeguard, unless confident you can 2 frame her teleport recovery or something. Keep in mind that depending where she’s at off stage, she may be able to explosive flame you if you’re near the ledge, but if you manage to get her in a plasma loop, it shouldn’t happen. |
Otherwise bait and punish; catch landings (keep in mind she may do things like auto-reticle or counter as a landing mixup), whiff punish her laggy moves, etc. Ledgetrap her (particularly with nair & f-tilt, and to a lesser extent plasma, up smash, and d-smash) rather than edgeguard, unless confident you can 2 frame her teleport recovery or something. Keep in mind that depending where she’s at off stage, she may be able to explosive flame you if you’re near the ledge, but if you manage to get her in a plasma loop, it shouldn’t happen. |
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* However, the window to punish her landing aerials (bair or fair) is pretty small despite the 39 or 33 frames of end lag and requires perfect spacing with d-tilt (plus she can mix up with neutral B and side B from above), so is often easier to let them whiff and then pay attention to what they do after so you can set up a good situation afterward (shield pressure, positioning, etc). |
* However, the window to punish her landing aerials (bair or fair) is pretty small despite the 39 or 33 frames of end lag and requires perfect spacing with d-tilt (plus she can mix up with neutral B and side B from above), so is often easier to let them whiff and then pay attention to what they do after so you can set up a good situation afterward (shield pressure, positioning, etc). |
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Her dair can hit us under a platform, so still shield it there. Said dair is only active a couple frames though. |
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Aside from calling out certain things with f-air (like her neutral B as pointed out), don’t jump is pretty emphasized in this matchup, with how well she stuffs them with her side B and such. Take advantage of your ground speed. |
Aside from calling out certain things with f-air (like her neutral B as pointed out), don’t jump is pretty emphasized in this matchup, with how well she stuffs them with her side B and such. Take advantage of your ground speed. |
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Another thing about getting out of Palu nair, if on a platform, the last hit of said nair may not connect as she’s falling, which just leaves you hovering in the air. So you could SDI above platforms to escape stuff potentially if they don't follow. SDI up and away allows you to escape more easily than you might think, but she can mix up with a reverse nair if she reads the SDI to make you take more nairs, so mix up your SDI too. |
Another thing about getting out of Palu nair, if on a platform, the last hit of said nair may not connect as she’s falling, which just leaves you hovering in the air. So you could SDI above platforms to escape stuff potentially if they don't follow. SDI up and away allows you to escape more easily than you might think, but she can mix up with a reverse nair if she reads the SDI to make you take more nairs, so mix up your SDI too. |
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On average, you may take a couple nair's from her followed by a couple uair's (her doing the latter in response to your SDI), getting you to around 50%. After you break out of that combo, expect a defensive play of autoreticle + shorthop bair, which you can slowly inch toward with d-tilt. |
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One other thing about her nair, when dealing with it in neutral (not disadvantage), the answer is spacing at max range. We have the range to beat her nair straight up (i.e. whiff punishing it with f-tilt, d-tilt, a preemptive nair of our own, or a retreating fair), but sometimes that does involve running back so that we don’t get hit first. Crouching also allows us to avoid her rising nair. She'll typically use rising nair on us more, making it more punishable if shielded, while her fair and bair is done landing, so watch out for those if she jumps and hasn't nair'd, which you deal with using the methods mentioned earlier. |
One other thing about her nair, when dealing with it in neutral (not disadvantage), the answer is spacing at max range. We have the range to beat her nair straight up (i.e. whiff punishing it with f-tilt, d-tilt, a preemptive nair of our own, or a retreating fair), but sometimes that does involve running back so that we don’t get hit first. Crouching also allows us to avoid her rising nair. She'll typically use rising nair on us more, making it more punishable if shielded, while her fair and bair is done landing, so watch out for those if she jumps and hasn't nair'd, which you deal with using the methods mentioned earlier. |
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Aside from d-tilt being used to catch her landings with how aerial focused she'll be at times, one of its other main purposes against her is to discourage dash attacks; the invincibility of the move is on the shield that's on her arm, and d-tilt hits under it. |
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For more on neutral, can spam d-tilt to scare them from bursting in with dash attack or setting up bairs can be useful (can also catch her nair landings). It's fast enough that you can shield any zoning attempts and they can't just shorthop in for free. |
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That said, d-tilt isn't as good when you're at lower % since they're gonna be focused on getting nair's above all else, but when you're at mid % it's a great call to their movement. Of course, you can still use d-tilt during low % if you conditioned them to respect f-tilt; then they'll be looking for grabs and a low % dash attack to start things. D-tilt's also fast enough that you can shield any zoning attempts and they can't just shorthop in for free. |
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They may adapt to |
They may adapt to d-tilt by trying to play just outside your burst range and bait an option, but you can start taking advantage of it by pushing them to the corner. |
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If you start to see her teleport from ledge, can dash attack the other way on reaction and hit her. It’s the same concept as catching landings with dash attack, or if you dash back and the opponent jumps in or something. It's not always about punishing what they’re doing but also punishing on what they didn't do. |
If you start to see her teleport from ledge, can dash attack the other way on reaction and hit her. It’s the same concept as catching landings with dash attack, or if you dash back and the opponent jumps in or something. It's not always about punishing what they’re doing but also punishing on what they didn't do. |
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If they kill you first, you can try to get back at them with backdash f-smash since they’ll be throwing out nair's. |
If they kill you first, you can try to get back at them with backdash f-smash since they’ll be throwing out nair's. |
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In neutral, dash shield is not recommended with how good her main aerials are. F-tilt and nair should be your main go to's. You can nair autocancel from a distance that equals about two rolls in distance, so not with the goal of hitting her. The goal is to make her come closer to you, and then punish. Doing a lot of nair will, in the mind of the Palutena player, prevent her from jumping. |
In neutral, dash shield is not recommended with how good her main aerials are; unless you can make smart use of dash shield. F-tilt and nair should be your main go to's. You can nair autocancel from a distance that equals about two rolls in distance, so not with the goal of hitting her. The goal is to make her come closer to you, and then punish. Doing a lot of nair will, in the mind of the Palutena player, prevent her from jumping. |
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As far as disadvantage, getting off ledge is the worst spot to be in against Palutena. Being juggled sucks too since you can die early from uair, but you can make them commit by recover high and you still have a different timing or drift mixup. Do what you're comfortable with. |
As far as disadvantage, getting off ledge is the worst spot to be in against Palutena. Being juggled sucks too since you can die early from uair, but you can make them commit by recover high and you still have a different timing or drift mixup. Do what you're comfortable with. |
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If you're getting edgeguarded, try your best to not recover horizontally, make good use of airdodge at different timings to avoid d-tilt. If you have to up B, aim for the wall and be ready to tech while DI down the counter to die later as usual. |
If you're getting edgeguarded, try your best to not recover horizontally, make good use of airdodge at different timings to avoid d-tilt. If you have to up B, aim for the wall and be ready to tech while DI down the counter to die later as usual. Also, for a character that falls as fast as Palu, she needs to be more precise with positioning against a Ridley hugging the stage with up B; she doesn't stall in the air with counter long enough to deny the ledge from one spot, so sometimes she has to resort to double jump countering. |
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Don't drop ledge too much against Palutena while at high %. Just because she jumps a lot in ledgetrap mode (fishing for her fair or bair) doesn't mean you can beat her with your ledge drop aerials; mostly when you're lucky. Is advised to ledge jump the moment you see her start to land. You can also neutral getup, but be careful since from 90 to 150%, her d-throw bair kill confirm tends to be true regardless of your DI. It's important not to drop ledge against Palutena if you're at high %. |
Don't drop ledge too much against Palutena while at high %. Just because she jumps a lot in ledgetrap mode (fishing for her fair or bair) doesn't mean you can beat her with your ledge drop aerials; mostly when you're lucky. Is advised to ledge jump the moment you see her start to land. You can also neutral getup, but be careful since from 90 to 150%, her d-throw bair kill confirm tends to be true regardless of your DI. It's important not to drop ledge against Palutena if you're at high %. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Ban FD against her, as it allows her to chain aerial combos across the stage without a platform to interrupt. |
Ban FD against her, as it allows her to chain aerial combos across the stage without a platform to interrupt. |
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Her dair can hit us under a platform, so still shield it there. Said dair is only active a couple frames though. |
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Palu multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), u-tilt (6 hits), nair (7 hits), uair (6 hits, DI one way and then the other), side B (7 hits) |
Palu multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), u-tilt (6 hits), nair (7 hits), uair (6 hits, DI one way and then the other), side B (7 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her f-smash, d-smash, fair, bair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so remember if up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so remember if up close. |
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Example of how we can body block Palu on platforms when she's teleport cancelling- |
Example of how we can body block Palu on platforms when she's teleport cancelling- |
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https://x.com/zurassb/status/1823833598597767237?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
https://x.com/zurassb/status/1823833598597767237?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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Teching her d-tilt at ledge- |
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# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilbpRnS2UDc |
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# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMSkyqi8HcM |
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}} |
}} |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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Respect the float ability; can hover for ~2.5 seconds, allowing them to throw out aerials near the ground. Can also cancel a jump with float, cancel float as soon as it starts, and do aerials without throwing a turnip. The |
Respect the float ability; can hover for ~2.5 seconds, allowing them to throw out aerials near the ground. Can also cancel a jump with float, cancel float as soon as it starts, and do aerials without throwing a turnip. The shorthop aerial multiplier doesn't apply to float since it counts as a fullhop. |
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Don't sit in shield since they can wait to shield poke, nor jump nearby which can be stuffed out. Do spaced anti-airs but don't mistime, or either move away & plasma some or nair OoS ( |
Don't sit in shield too long since they can wait to shield poke, nor jump nearby carelessly which can be stuffed out. Do spaced anti-airs but don't mistime, or either move away & plasma some to bait an option or nair OoS (though watch out for her shield pressure options like retreating dair from a float). There's also tapping shield to keep her guessing. |
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Watch out for turnips like when recovering. Either take the hit or nair them, rather than airdodge. If you see a Mr Saturn, do not shield. Bomb speaks for itself. Stitch faced turnips are stronger than normal ones, and on the ground she doesn't throw them that far like midair. |
Watch out for turnips like when recovering. Either take the hit or nair them, rather than airdodge. If you see a Mr Saturn, do not shield. Bomb speaks for itself. Stitch faced turnips are stronger than normal ones, and on the ground she doesn't throw them that far like midair. |
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Her d-throw combos well and her b-throw can kill, but by DI'ing the way she's facing during d-throw can mix up her followups. |
Her d-throw combos well and her b-throw can kill, but by DI'ing the way she's facing during d-throw can mix up her followups. |
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Also watch out for f-air as a potential kill move, and her 4-hit dair leads into confirms, |
Also watch out for f-air as a potential kill move, and her 4-hit dair leads into confirms, though can DI away to avoid those or up smash OoS in between her dair hits but this loses to falling nair, so be mindful of the mixup. |
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Her combo starters in general are dair, safe d-tilt, turnips, and d-throw. |
Her combo starters in general are dair, safe d-tilt, turnips, and d-throw. |
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With her recovery, umbrella will only be used when below ledge, which will hit you there unless shielding. With how strong umbrella is, is best to edgeguard them before they recover from that low. |
With her recovery, umbrella will only be used when below ledge, which will hit you there unless shielding. With how strong umbrella is, is best to edgeguard them before they recover from that low. |
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Otherwise in the case of extending your advantage state, switch your mental from throwing out d-tilt to f-air, as she'll almost never touch the floor but rather float out of hitstun. There's also retreating nair if she floats just barely too high for your up angled f-tilt to reach, as well as u-tilt. |
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Otherwise, use shorthop and fullhop nair along with falling fair's to make progress. Spaced aerials are actually good with Peach since her only forward OoS option is basically nair; fair OoS is frame 19, giving us 6 extra frames of leeway to shield it. |
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Better to shield and take grabs even at high percents in this matchup, than to not shield and take stray aerials or something; her throws don't kill aside from b-throw at the right position but her aerials do. Will also want to play shield heavy when she has turnip, even rolling if that's what it takes to avoid a turnip toss. |
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When she's edgeguarding or ledgetrapping us, watch out for float and time your approaches. A beefy up B from low beats turnips. |
When she's edgeguarding or ledgetrapping us, watch out for float and time your approaches. A beefy up B from low beats turnips. |
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Although all her landing aerials are too safe on shield, her dair will trade at best and lose the % war. |
Although all her landing aerials are too safe on shield, her dair will trade at best and lose the % war. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her fair and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a frame faster than the first hit of her dair, so it's possible to uair her as he's getting into position to dair with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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If she misses a Toad counter nearby, whiff punish. Her jab 2, f-tilt, u/d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-28) are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at kill confirm %. |
If she misses a Toad counter nearby, whiff punish. Her jab 2, f-tilt, u/d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-28) are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at kill confirm %. |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (83-86%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (83-86%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%) |
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Credit to Paco on extending advantage state and up smash OoS as a mixup against her dair, and to AdmiralCrunch on neutral versus float and turnip. |
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}} |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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In Pichu combos, DI/SDI out is generally good. Just pay attention if you're near ledge to not DI bair out and die at 70%. Also remember its f-throw at ledge can kill around the 150% range if not a little higher. |
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When being juggled, our dair can beat out Pichu's uair. Still have to watch out for Thunders in the air though with how strong it is, and the intangible u-smash. Pichu will be focusing more on catching landings, so have to be careful when and how you land. Use jumps wisely and try not to land right on top Pichu often. Landing bair is pretty safe if spaced. |
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Pichu’s f-tilt has trouble hitting Ridley on the ledge, requiring specific spacing. Pichu will attempt to bait you into an option with t-jolt; this is usually to force a reaction and get you to press a getup option quickly, so keep a level head and watch for patterns. You can afford to reset the ledge situation a few times to learn the holes in their patterns. Ledge jump and ledge drop nair can be good for Pichu’s who use t-jolt too late, as it beats the jolt and can hit Pichu. |
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In Pichu combos, DI/SDI out is generally good. Just pay attention if you're near ledge to not DI bair out and die at 70%. Also remember its f-throw at ledge can kill around the 150% range if not a little higher. For off stage, use every mixup possible to stay alive. Hang back and wait until Thunder passes before recovering, be ready to tech off stage aerials when trying to up B to ledge, etc. |
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Don’t forget that ledge getup attack has invulnerability all the way until the attack comes out, which can stop Pichu’s from attempting to hit you after ledge invul is gone. Holding down for a bit during up B so that you delay ledge snap just a bit (aka up B poking) can hit Pichu standing near the ledge. |
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For off stage, use every mixup possible to stay alive. Hang back and wait until Thunder passes before recovering, be ready to tech off stage aerials when trying to up B to ledge, etc. Be careful of doing up B near walls, as t-jolt will bounce along the stage and hit you during startup. This is very bad to get hit by. |
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When being juggled, our dair can beat out Pichu's uair. Still have to watch out for Thunders in the air though with how strong it is, and the intangible u-smash. Pichu will be focusing more on catching landings, so have to be careful when and how you land. Use jumps wisely and try not to land right on top Pichu often. Landing bair is pretty safe if spaced. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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T-jolt causes tumble at 92%. |
T-jolt causes tumble at 92%. Also remember Pichu's t-jolt travels faster than Pikachu's along with being a bit more versatile. |
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Multihits: f-smash (6 hits), d-smash (5 hits), fair (4 hits), bair (6 hits), dair (2 hits), f-throw (5 hits) |
Multihits: f-smash (6 hits), d-smash (5 hits), fair (4 hits), bair (6 hits), dair (2 hits), f-throw (5 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Pichu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
Pichu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Dair & t-jolt hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Dair & t-jolt hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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His side B is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Pichu can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Pichu's normals besides u-tilt & d-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS. Its landing aerials besides bair & dair are too safe on shield though, so reset. Point-blank T-jolt is pretty OoS punishable (-29/30), as is Thunder (-27). |
Pichu's normals besides u-tilt & d-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS. Its landing aerials besides bair & dair are too safe on shield though, so reset. Point-blank T-jolt is pretty OoS punishable (-29/30), as is Thunder (-27). |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Misc: T-jolt doesn't really cause tumble at high % like Pichu's does. |
Misc: T-jolt doesn't really cause tumble at high % like Pichu's does. Pika's is also slower and a bit easier to react to, which might make Rid d-smash hopping over jolt during ledgetrap more consistent. |
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Pika is invulnerable during frames 34-43 of thunder if it hits you. |
Pika is invulnerable during frames 34-43 of thunder if it hits you. |
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DI Pika's dash attack the same way you would Cloud's and such; down & in near ledge, DI down at center stage, and down & away from far side. |
DI Pika's dash attack the same way you would Cloud's and such; down & in near ledge, DI down at center stage, and down & away from far side. |
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For grab > thunder, Pikachu has two routes in which he can kill you based off your DI. With DI in, he can kill you off up throw > thunder from |
* For grab > thunder, Pikachu has two routes in which he can kill you based off your DI. With DI in, he can kill you off up throw > thunder from roughly 90% to 140%. With no DI or DI out, he can kill you off d-throw > thunder, which takes some execution from roughly 90% to 120%. Thus, the counterplay is to DI out and jump away when the d-throw combo doesn't connect and DI in when d-throw does combo because they’ll always go for that. Eventually, it becomes a 50/50 of guessing which DI you’ll do. |
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Our d-smash is good for hopping over and punishing overly aggressive attacks from Pika. |
Our d-smash is good for hopping over and punishing overly aggressive attacks from Pika. Max spaced d-smash may be preferred depending on the range they typically play. |
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His d-smash and bair are 6 hits, so shield as long accordingly before potentially punishing. His nair is 4 hits & fair is 6 hits, while dair is 2 hits; f-throw is 5 hits. |
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Pikachu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same with Pika's fair, except it has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
Pikachu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same with Pika's fair, except it has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
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His d-smash, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,245: | Line 3,793: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Plant has a pretty fast grab to compensate for its low mobility, so watch out for that; not to mention its back and up throws have KO potential at high %. |
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Plant dair hits us under plats, so shield or avoid there. |
Plant dair hits us under plats, so shield or avoid there. |
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Ptooie has 10% armor; damage based armor but on a projectile. |
Ptooie has 10% armor; damage based armor but on a projectile. |
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Plant up B hits require 3 or more SDI inputs, each of which have 3 or so hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Respect Plant's ledge getup attack range. |
Respect Plant's ledge getup attack range. |
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His dash attack, f-smash, u-smash, fair, and bair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Plant f-tilt 1, u-tilt, u-smash, f-smash, uair, and footstooled attack have head intangibility, as well as Long-Stem Strike after it comes out (15% armor before it comes out and 12% after it comes out). |
Plant f-tilt 1, u-tilt, u-smash, f-smash, uair, and footstooled attack have head intangibility, as well as Long-Stem Strike after it comes out (15% armor before it comes out and 12% after it comes out). |
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Line 3,286: | Line 3,844: | ||
That aside, try to DI/SDI away from their combos. Respect their disjointed aerials. Better to mostly stay grounded and anti-air or catch landings, especially with how floaty they are, making them prone to getting juggled. Don't whiff an attack by swinging too early though. |
That aside, try to DI/SDI away from their combos. Respect their disjointed aerials. Better to mostly stay grounded and anti-air or catch landings, especially with how floaty they are, making them prone to getting juggled. Don't whiff an attack by swinging too early though. |
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Also watch out for their grab game. F-throw can lead into combos at early %, and kill at late % near ledge. Their side B can KO around 125% give or take, reflect projectiles when used, and has super armor, but comes with being very unsafe on shield as a tradeoff where they bounce off it and land (the aerial version of side B at least), though dodge instead if you don't have a healthy shield. Watch if they use side B from ledge and hold shield before attacking. |
Also watch out for their grab game. F-throw can lead into combos at early %, and kill at late % near ledge. Their side B can KO around 125% give or take (on the ground at least, while the aerial version is weaker), reflect projectiles when used (reflects upward rather than back at you, and will cut short Pit's dash since he'll swing his arm prematurely), and has super armor, but comes with being very unsafe on shield as a tradeoff where they bounce off it and land (the aerial version of side B at least), though dodge instead if you don't have a healthy shield. Watch if they use side B from ledge and hold shield before attacking. |
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Their down B orbitars also reflect projectiles, as well as blocking physical attacks and pushing you away slightly, but they're vulnerable from above and below. Also the orbitars can only take 15%, after which it breaks and takes 10 seconds to recharge which you can then maybe plasma them. |
Their down B orbitars also reflect projectiles, as well as blocking physical attacks and pushing you away slightly, but they're vulnerable from above and below. Also the orbitars can only take 15%, after which it breaks and takes 10 seconds to recharge which you can then maybe plasma them. |
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Line 3,296: | Line 3,854: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Pit multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (3 hits), nair (8 hits), fair (3 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
Pit multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (3 hits), nair (8 hits), fair (3 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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Pit has a total of 4 jumps, with 3 midair jumps. |
Pit has a total of 4 jumps, with 3 midair jumps. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,335: | Line 3,897: | ||
<tabber> |
<tabber> |
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|-|Overall= |
|-|Overall= |
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All three Pokemon are floaties, and all their recoveries suffer against plasma hard. When they're above you, they're way too dependent on Pokemon switching to mix you up, and there's situations where you just frame trap them anyway if they go for it. |
All three Pokemon are floaties, making our u-throw > uair more reliable on them, and all their recoveries suffer against plasma hard. When they're above you, they're way too dependent on Pokemon switching to mix you up, and there's situations where you just frame trap them anyway if they go for it. |
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Credit to smub on that. |
Credit to smub on that. |
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Line 3,350: | Line 3,912: | ||
That said, the most important thing is to tech when they start f-tilting at higher percent, as jablock > f-smash is their earliest form of killing. Also try to DI away when being combo'd at low % and hold on to your jumps. Once he gets you off stage is when they switch to Ivysaur and will either try to edgeguard you with an aerial like dair, or ledgetrap with f-smash. |
That said, the most important thing is to tech when they start f-tilting at higher percent, as jablock > f-smash is their earliest form of killing. Also try to DI away when being combo'd at low % and hold on to your jumps. Once he gets you off stage is when they switch to Ivysaur and will either try to edgeguard you with an aerial like dair, or ledgetrap with f-smash. |
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His u-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,372: | Line 3,938: | ||
Ivy multihits- f-tilt (~5 hits), nair (8 hits), bair (2 hits), neutral B (~5 hits but does twice as much when B is held longer) |
Ivy multihits- f-tilt (~5 hits), nair (8 hits), bair (2 hits), neutral B (~5 hits but does twice as much when B is held longer) |
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Ivy nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-smash, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our dair comes out a frame faster than his uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Aside from our jab 1 starting faster than Ivysaur's, their rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Its other normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash when shielded up close is punished by our own as well as shorthop skewer OoS. Ivy's DA, d-smash, and ledge GUA (-25) are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its landing aerials besides nair are too safe on shield though, so reset there, and watch out for dair which destroys us offstage and uair which covers most landing options. Its point-blank neutral B is shield punishable with f-smash & shorthop skewer OoS, and point-blank razor leaf is OoS aerial/grab punished. Its jab 2/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, point-blank neutral B & up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Aside from our jab 1 starting faster than Ivysaur's, their rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Its other normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash when shielded up close is punished by our own as well as shorthop skewer OoS. Ivy's DA, d-smash, and ledge GUA (-25) are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its landing aerials besides nair are too safe on shield though, so reset there, and watch out for dair which destroys us offstage and uair which covers most landing options. Its point-blank neutral B is shield punishable with f-smash & shorthop skewer OoS, and point-blank razor leaf is OoS aerial/grab punished. Its jab 2/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, point-blank neutral B & up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 3,386: | Line 3,960: | ||
Zard’s f-smash and uair have intangibility on the head, and his one-way up B has super armor during the first few frames, so if you're gonna spike him, wait to do so after. |
Zard’s f-smash and uair have intangibility on the head, and his one-way up B has super armor during the first few frames, so if you're gonna spike him, wait to do so after. |
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His f-smash, d-smash, fair, and Flare Blitz are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out seven frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational; same with our dair coming out a frame faster than his uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,391: | Line 3,971: | ||
Respect Zard's grab range and ledge getup attack range. |
Respect Zard's grab range and ledge getup attack range. |
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When shielding Zard side B, only move/shorthop slightly forward and wait till he's closer to falling on ground for a skewer punish. Shielding said side B may push him on a platform on plat stages; avoid challenging it with plasma. Also, his u-smash is 2 hits. |
When shielding Zard side B, only move/shorthop slightly forward and wait till he's closer to falling on ground for a skewer punish. Shielding said side B may push him on a platform on plat stages; can also Wing Blitz forward after shielding it, but avoid challenging it with plasma. Also, his u-smash is 2 hits. |
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Charizard's normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while f-smash and d-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f/d-smash (or u-smash OoS) and maybe shortop skewer OoS punishable as well depending on shield pushback. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its fair, bair, and dair are punished by our aerials, grab, and u-smash OoS, but Zard's landing nair and uair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Flamethrower I would go for a neutral reset on when shielding, but Flare Blitz is punishable on shield with whatever (given that your shield won't break) when they're on stage and they flop to the ground, but when they’re falling back off you don’t really have time to chase them low. They shouldn't be trying to hit you with it otherwise outside of tech chases. |
Charizard's normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while f-smash and d-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f/d-smash (or u-smash OoS) and maybe shortop skewer OoS punishable as well depending on shield pushback. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its fair, bair, and dair are punished by our aerials, grab, and u-smash OoS, but Zard's landing nair and uair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Flamethrower I would go for a neutral reset on when shielding, but Flare Blitz is punishable on shield with whatever (given that your shield won't break) when they're on stage and they flop to the ground, but when they’re falling back off you don’t really have time to chase them low. They shouldn't be trying to hit you with it otherwise outside of tech chases. |
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Line 3,462: | Line 4,042: | ||
Pyra has worse fastest OoS options than us (in frames). |
Pyra has worse fastest OoS options than us (in frames). |
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Her dash attack, f-smash, u-smash, nair, fair, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational; same with our dair coming out a couple frames faster than her uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup. Also note that Prominence Revolt will spike aerial opponents when descending, although is reactable. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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===== Mythra ===== |
===== Mythra ===== |
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If Mythra recovers horizontally with side B or out of a chase, can parry the last hit which is |
If Mythra recovers horizontally with side B or out of a chase, can parry the last hit which is 6th and f-smash. Timing isn't too hard since it's a multi-hit. Wing Blitz forward & down with ledge snap also trades with/beats Photon Edge, and some plasma may be an option as well if spaced enough, so if you put em in a situation where they have to recover horizontal to ledge you can bash them in. She goes in freefall after side B if not close enough to ledge, but if she does get to ledge, she can also do a ledgehop (or ledgedrop double jump) side B to get back on stage. When she's the one in advantage, just remember she may use her side B to ledge trap, tech chase, or catch landings, so watch your timing accordingly. |
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Her neutral B Lightning Buster is 4 or 5 fits, though has less end lag to punish but still shield it. It has intangibility on release, so she may use it as a landing mixup or worse a potential edgeguard. We can dash attack it on whiff though thankfully. |
Her neutral B Lightning Buster is 4 or 5 fits, though has less end lag to punish but still shield it. It has intangibility on release, so she may use it as a landing mixup or worse a potential edgeguard. We can dash attack it on whiff though thankfully, but keep in mind the 1st hit hits both in front and behind her. Also, she can B-reverse the move after charging it, in a similar vein to Mii Swordfighter's Blurring Blade and Sephiroth's Shadow Flare. |
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Throwing out a well timed and placed SPR or grab seems to be Ridley’s answer to Mythra’s Foresight ability. If she dodges the first hit of our f-air, the 2nd or 3rd can still hit her even during Foresight. Likewise, if she dodges one fireball, the other fireballs after will still hit her if you charged any plasma at all. Be careful of Foresight regardless though, lest you get punished easily. Try to shield or jab if caught. Foresight also makes it harder to apply platform pressure to her when she can roll/spot dodge to avoid a move while on plat or airdodge a uair, aside from how quick she can move or jump off it with her speed. Platform juggling her is not impossible though still. |
Throwing out a well timed and placed SPR or grab seems to be Ridley’s answer to Mythra’s Foresight ability. If she dodges the first hit of our f-air, the 2nd or 3rd can still hit her even during Foresight. Likewise, if she dodges one fireball, the other fireballs after will still hit her if you charged any plasma at all. Be careful of Foresight regardless though, lest you get punished easily. Try to shield or jab if caught. Foresight also makes it harder to apply platform pressure to her when she can roll/spot dodge to avoid a move while on plat or airdodge a uair, aside from how quick she can move or jump off it with her speed. Platform juggling her is not impossible though still. |
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Line 3,498: | Line 4,084: | ||
Her dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid it. |
Her dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid it. |
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Her side B is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. Also, if she uses side B off stage near ledge, our ledge jump dair can hit her; even if it doesn't spike with the sweetspot, still gives good advantage. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Mythra's directional airdodge also travels a bit further than most of the cast (barring only Ness and Lucas), so respect it when otherwise edgeguarding her. She has below average jump height however, still making her easy to edgeguard in addition to her fast falling speed. Not to mention, unlike regular directional airdodges, Mythra's during Foresight is not able to grab ledges, due to the ending lag being considered part of the Foresight animation, along with said animation being impossible to interrupt in any way until it's completed. |
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Our uair comes out a couple frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,533: | Line 4,127: | ||
On walled stages like Kalos, dair can only be teched if the other Ridley is facing the stage. |
On walled stages like Kalos, dair can only be teched if the other Ridley is facing the stage. |
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His side B (grounded) and Skewer are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,565: | Line 4,161: | ||
Side B, Arm Rotor: Aside from another get-off-me, is effective on shield. If you shield, make sure you hold it all the way to the end, and he may crossup & move himself far enough away to make it difficult to punish. It also reflects projectiles, so keep in mind when it comes to Plasma. It's worst when used off stage where it can kill really early, so do your best to recover above or below if you see him coming at you like that. That all said, if you space yourself well, Arm Rotor is quite whiff punishable, even with Skewer. |
Side B, Arm Rotor: Aside from another get-off-me, is effective on shield. If you shield, make sure you hold it all the way to the end, and he may crossup & move himself far enough away to make it difficult to punish. It also reflects projectiles, so keep in mind when it comes to Plasma. It's worst when used off stage where it can kill really early, so do your best to recover above or below if you see him coming at you like that. That all said, if you space yourself well, Arm Rotor is quite whiff punishable, even with Skewer. |
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Also respect his throws. His up throw can kill around |
Also respect his throws. His up throw can kill us around 175% and combo, and his d-throw buries like K Rool's and Banjo's. Mix up your mashing + airdodge as usual, but definitely don't let him get a u-smash kill or something. |
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Onto weaknesses, for one thing he struggles to KO. You'd think that wouldn't be the case, but his powerful moves come out slow and are easy to react to, so you can shield or dodge and punish often. This is why he'll often look for d-tilt up close, to get you in a KO position. He's also easy to combo due to his size like us, and doesn't have reliable combo breakers. His recovery is slow & linear, but can attack in between using it. Watch out for his uair from under the stage, and don't stay at the edge without shielding. |
Onto weaknesses, for one thing he struggles to KO. You'd think that wouldn't be the case, but his powerful moves come out slow and are easy to react to, so you can shield or dodge and punish often. This is why he'll often look for d-tilt up close, to get you in a KO position. He's also easy to combo due to his size like us, and doesn't have reliable combo breakers. His recovery is slow & linear, but can attack in between using it. Watch out for his uair from under the stage, and don't stay at the edge without shielding. |
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Line 3,578: | Line 4,174: | ||
Also, the higher up you parry his landing nair, the more time you have to react with something, so what helps is to condition an early nair in the air to get more out of parries. Also just because his disjoint is bigger doesn't mean he can't be traded with. U-tilt and uair do that a lot, and similar to Diddy's banana, you don't always want to rush to pick up gyro. Dash attack safely picks it up whether it's spinning or not, but that's usually what ROB's will react to out of shield. |
Also, the higher up you parry his landing nair, the more time you have to react with something, so what helps is to condition an early nair in the air to get more out of parries. Also just because his disjoint is bigger doesn't mean he can't be traded with. U-tilt and uair do that a lot, and similar to Diddy's banana, you don't always want to rush to pick up gyro. Dash attack safely picks it up whether it's spinning or not, but that's usually what ROB's will react to out of shield. |
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Another thing when you parry ROB nair, how high he is when he hits your shield changes the optimal punish a lot of the time, so you may find yourself shuffling between gentleman jab, up tilt, and down tilt as parry punishes. |
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If timed and positioned right above a platform, ROB nair, bair, and dair can hit us when we’re under it, so shield them still. |
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If they try following up after doing up throw > fair at 0%, a buffered double jump nair out of hitstun will stuff them out |
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if you know they're going to escape high and bair in the upper blastzone to center themselves. You can use a nearby platform to chase after them with a high up air which'll kill them as early as 60% if you sweetspot them. Up tilt > up air has a solid window against ROB, and because of how big he is he gets frame trapped off of it easier than most characters. |
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===== Gyro ===== |
===== Gyro ===== |
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* If you catch gyro, it can |
* If you catch gyro, it can be good to throw it up which lets it stay in the air for a bit and ROB can't spawn another. It'll fall down eventually but it takes a while, so could be useful to eliminate gyro pressure. And don't just toss it up, but smash toss it up which sends farther (a smash input or A+B when tossing in a direction). |
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* If you have enough ledge intangibility, you can just wait the gyro out and then get off the ledge since it hits most ledge hangs; otherwise prepare to tech against the stage when you get hit by gyro. Also if gyro isn’t directly on the ledge (i.e. slightly further away but still threatens neutral getup), you can ledge jump and Z-catch the gyro (same input and timing as catching Diddy’s banana from ledge). |
* If you have enough ledge intangibility, you can just wait the gyro out and then get off the ledge since it hits most ledge hangs; otherwise prepare to tech against the stage when you get hit by gyro. Also if gyro isn’t directly on the ledge (i.e. slightly further away but still threatens neutral getup), you can ledge jump and Z-catch the gyro (same input and timing as catching Diddy’s banana from ledge). |
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Line 3,589: | Line 4,188: | ||
* ROB can crouch under gyro if you try to throw it at them around medium range but we can also do the same. This won't work if they are spinning gyro and then fire, it's only for when they are holding it and throw it as an item. |
* ROB can crouch under gyro if you try to throw it at them around medium range but we can also do the same. This won't work if they are spinning gyro and then fire, it's only for when they are holding it and throw it as an item. |
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* Go here to see how you can pick up Gyro with simply initial dash and jab. Unlike most if not all the other ways, it gives you enough time to shield ROB laser after picking up Gyro. |
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# https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130937696465107?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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# https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130940405985575?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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# https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130942998065390?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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# https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130945741185185?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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* When gryo hits you, be ready to tech from 40% and onward. |
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* Although situational, if you get a gyro thrown or Z-dropped behind ROB and knock him into it like with an f-tilt in time, you get a free d-tilt > aerial on him. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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If timed and positioned right above a platform, ROB nair, bair, and dair can hit us when we’re under it, so shield them still. |
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Its d-smash is 3 hits, while side B is ~6 hits without mashing & ~11 hits with mashing. |
Its d-smash is 3 hits, while side B is ~6 hits without mashing & ~11 hits with mashing. |
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Line 3,603: | Line 4,214: | ||
If you parry one d-tilt and they do another (mashing d-tilt on your shield), you can punish with jab. The other moves are too slow in this instance. |
If you parry one d-tilt and they do another (mashing d-tilt on your shield), you can punish with jab. The other moves are too slow in this instance. |
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His f-smash, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out nine frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,620: | Line 4,235: | ||
Major credit to smub for the neutral tips against ROB's nair and such, and major credit to Hyrchurn on the more specific things about gyro and whatnot. |
Major credit to smub for the neutral tips against ROB's nair and such, and major credit to Hyrchurn on the more specific things about gyro and whatnot. |
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Go here to see how you can pick up Gyro with simply initial dash and jab. Unlike most if not all the other ways, it gives you enough time to shield ROB laser after picking up Gyro. |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130937696465107?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130940405985575?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130942998065390?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130945741185185?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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}} |
}} |
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Thunder, elthunder, and arcthunder all get cancelled out by a single fireball. When arcfire is airborne, it also loses to plasma aside from the other clanks. |
Thunder, elthunder, and arcthunder all get cancelled out by a single fireball. When arcfire is airborne, it also loses to plasma aside from the other clanks. |
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Their dair is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a couple frames faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair then as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Credit to the Ridcord JMU section for a good chunk of this info. |
Credit to the Ridcord JMU section for a good chunk of this info. |
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How shield tilting as Ridley helps against Robin- |
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https://x.com/bee_not_hachi/status/1748779229192266021 |
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}} |
}} |
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When shielding a charged neutral B (Luma Shot), how you respond to it after depends on where it is, be it in front or behind you depending on how long it was charged. Jumping over the neutral B is a good option too. |
When shielding a charged neutral B (Luma Shot), how you respond to it after depends on where it is, be it in front or behind you depending on how long it was charged. Jumping over the neutral B is a good option too. |
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When they're separated, watch out for Luma's edgeguarding & ledgetrapping as much as Rosa's if not more, with it often being the front row opponent. Get-off-me aerials before recovering can also help against it. That said, Rosa punishes a high recovery on stage, and while recovering low is better, she can gimp like with dair, so watch your timing. If Luma's attacking up close near ledge, getup attack is best, but if Luma's close and not attacking, don't ledge getup attack because it's a bait; Rosa will come punishing after you hit Luma. It's better to ledge jump in that situation. |
When they're separated, watch out for Luma's edgeguarding & ledgetrapping as much as Rosa's if not more, with it often being the front row opponent. Get-off-me aerials before recovering can also help against it. That said, Rosa punishes a high recovery on stage, and while recovering low is better, she can gimp like with dair, so watch your timing. If Luma's attacking up close near ledge, getup attack is best, but if Luma's close and not attacking, don't ledge getup attack because it's a bait; Rosa will come punishing after you hit Luma. It's better to ledge jump in that situation. There's also up B poking Luma if Rosa's not nearby to punish. |
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When you grab Rosa, Luma can attack, so be as cautious in grabbing her as with Ice Climbers. Unlike IC's though, better off not pummeling and just throwing, preferably one that moves her away from Luma, and right after the throw, pull up shield so Luma doesn't hit you. If you throw Rosa far, can use that time to attack Luma and knock it off the stage. |
When you grab Rosa, Luma can attack, so be as cautious in grabbing her as with Ice Climbers. Unlike IC's though, better off not pummeling and just throwing, preferably one that moves her away from Luma, and right after the throw, pull up shield so Luma doesn't hit you. If you throw Rosa far, can use that time to attack Luma and knock it off the stage. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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We can crouch under her fair while using d-tilt to stay under and hit a Luma that’s in front. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Pivot cancel f-tilt is good for repeated damage against Luma once you get momentum going, and they eventually die from it one way or another if you're free to do so for that long. |
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Her dair can hit us under platforms, but is not that strong. |
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Rosa u-tilt and u-smash have head intangibility. |
Rosa u-tilt and u-smash have head intangibility. |
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Aside from dash attack, her nair is 2 hits, fair is 5 hits, and side B is 3 hits. |
Aside from dash attack, her nair is 2 hits, fair is 5 hits, and side B is 3 hits. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Her dair can hit us under plats but is not that strong. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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We can crouch under her fair while using d-tilt to stay under and hit a Luma that’s in front. |
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Her f-smash, fair, and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. For Luma, our uair's four frames faster than their dair in startup. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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Dash attack will beat Roy's short hop if spaced. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt -> fullhop uair (87-90%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (91-100%) |
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}} |
}} |
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|oneliner=Dragon's fist meets the Dragon's wrath |
|oneliner=Dragon's fist meets the Dragon's wrath |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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* Placeholder |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (92-95%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-108%) |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Gameplan ===== |
===== Gameplan ===== |
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'''Counterplay: The unique attack Jab 1'''<br> |
'''Counterplay: The unique attack Jab 1'''<br> |
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Samus Jab 1 is a very quick move at frame 3. Though Samus's jab 1 and 2 have an unique property: they do not connect into each other. Because of this, if they Jab 1 your shield, they will try to condition a punish from the out of shield option you do. They will typically pressure a |
Samus Jab 1 is a very quick move at frame 3. Though Samus's jab 1 and 2 have an unique property: they do not connect into each other. Because of this, if they Jab 1 your shield, they will try to condition a punish from the out of shield option you do. They will typically pressure a spot-dodge or a wait in shield then punish it with slow move like a timed jab 2, dash back pivot grab, or a slow normal like up tilt. |
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The best way to understand how to beat this move is to think of Jab 1 as a completely separate attack from Jab 2. Since when Jab 1 is almost over that's when the Samus is able to use Jab 2. So they are more likely to do another option out of Jab 1 especially since Jab 2 isn't rewarding for them besides being a get off me. The best way to punish Jab 1 out of shield is to do either a grab or nair on reaction, as Samus cannot prepare a bait into time to punish your option nor have Jab 2 come out in time. Jab 1 will also not connect into Jab 2 until you are both at high percents typically when both players have max rage. This will allow you to shield Jab 2 if you get hit by Jab 1. |
The best way to understand how to beat this move is to think of Jab 1 as a completely separate attack from Jab 2. Since when Jab 1 is almost over that's when the Samus is able to use Jab 2. So they are more likely to do another option out of Jab 1 especially since Jab 2 isn't rewarding for them besides being a get off me. The best way to punish Jab 1 out of shield is to do either a grab or nair on reaction, as Samus cannot prepare a bait into time to punish your option nor have Jab 2 come out in time. Jab 1 will also not connect into Jab 2 until you are both at high percents typically when both players have max rage. This will allow you to shield Jab 2 if you get hit by Jab 1. |
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'''Counterplay: Bomb Stall'''<br> |
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If Samus is off stage, a thing they will typically do is bomb stall. Bomb stalling is a '''horizontal''' stall, that allows Samus to timely grab a ledge and evade edgeguards. Down Special allows Samus to fall a little slower and weave back and forth quickly. Keep in mind if Samus bounces off a bomb, she cannot act, making her susceptible to attacks. The only thing Samus can do is move back and forth, so it's best to force Samus to go low to make her use a double jump. This is effective because bomb stalling isn't really good at stalling vertically, as Samus falls way faster than her bombs do. |
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Once you take Samus's jump she is forced to stay around the height of ledge since if she bomb stalls a little too much, then she will not be able to recover. So she will only be allowed to roughly do 2-4 bombs before having to go to ledge. Note that she can only bring out two bombs and cannot bounce again without the bounce animation finishing. You should be intercepting her trying to get to ledge, not the position she's currently at when bombing. Also, do not be afraid of the bomb, as Ridley's aerials will beat it out and hit Samus. Using the bombs as a form of hitbox extension can be quite helpful for edgeguards. |
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* While we can destroy bombs before they go off with spaced d-tilt & f-tilt, smashes, nair, bair, and maybe fair, watch the Samus so you don’t get punished by CS or grab while doing it. |
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'''Counterplay: Samus's forward aerial'''<br> |
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With Samus f-air's 28 frames of end lag along with the landing lag that comes with it, it can be whiff punished by the likes of SPR or dash attack. |
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You have to more or less skirt the edge of their f-air hitbox if they drift back but you can definitely be closer and within the explosions before it hits you. The hitbox and the explosion stuff can be misleading, with the explosions of f-air making the hitboxes seem bigger than they actually are. |
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Even better, if Samus is doing f-air and you're quite the distance away, doing SPR towards Samus when her f-air is at it's highest point will let your side B land with no issue so long as you get them in the max range in case they drift back. Still, have to watch the Samus as they f-air and you can react to the mid part of the move, and from there it just relies on if you can be and get in position to input side B. If you were already in position, then you can input side B once she reaches the tip of her jump. |
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Dash attack can be used to punish drift back f-air, but it's a gamble on getting a correct read of them doing it. If they're drifting back with the move though, they generally won't be fastfalling. You can also dash back and then immediately dash attack to allow for some hurtbox shifting during a f-air whiff punish. |
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F-air is also possible to punish OoS like if you dash toward them and then shield (dash shielding in other words) the last hit since it's only the final hit box that really hits. Dash grab OoS works in this case, though d-tilt and f-tilt won't reach her if she's drifting back, but if she fastfall's the f-air, then she'll end up in tilt range. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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* Wing Blitz |
* Wing Blitz |
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</small> |
</small> |
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'''Counterplay: Bomb Stall'''<br> |
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If Samus is offstage, a thing they will typically do is bomb stall. Bomb stalling is a '''horizontal''' stall, that allows Samus to time grabbing a ledge and evade edge guards. Down Special allows Samus to fall a little slower and weave back and forth quickly. Keep in mind if Samus bounces off a bomb, she cannot act. Making her susceptible to attacks. The only thing Samus can do is move back and forth, so its best to force Samus to go low to make her use a double jump. This is effective as bomb stalling isn't really good at stalling vertically as Samus falls way faster than her bombs do. Once you take Samus's jump she is forced to stay around the height of ledge as if she bomb stalls a little too much, then she will not be able to recover. So she will only be allowed to roughly do 2-4 bombs before having to go to ledge. Note that she can only bring out two bombs and cannot bounce again without the bounce animation finishing. You should be intercepting her trying to get to ledge not the position where she is at. Also, do not be afraid of the bomb, as Ridley's aerials will beat it out and hit Samus. Using the bombs as a form of hitbox extension can be quite helpful for edge guards. |
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* While we can destroy bombs before they go off with spaced d-tilt & f-tilt, smashes, nair, bair, and maybe fair, watch the Samus so you don’t get punished by CS or grab while doing it. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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'''At Ledge'''<br> |
'''At Ledge'''<br> |
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Samus AND Dark Samus can two frame with: |
Samus AND Dark Samus can two frame with: |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full charge shot, since our hurtbox is likely still big enough to be hit by it. |
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Respect her ledge getup attack range; not quite as long as ours, but still has pretty good reach. |
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Aside from grab, d-tilt and f-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering a delayed getup option. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering a delayed getup option. |
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* Being in the air during SPR allows Ridley to stall and avoid (during startup) small projectiles like baby CS from a shorthop. If her neutral B is charged any though, better to do a fullhop, which SPR can still whiff punish if timed & positioned right, but only do if not expecting her to jump and shoot it, a missile, or fair/zair. Unstaled SPR kills her ~140% if not a little earlier from what's been tested, though how much DI affects it remains to be seen, but Ridley being at somewhere high % with rage can help it kill even earlier depending. |
* Being in the air during SPR allows Ridley to stall and avoid (during startup) small projectiles like baby CS from a shorthop. If her neutral B is charged any though, better to do a fullhop, which SPR can still whiff punish if timed & positioned right, but only do if not expecting her to jump and shoot it, a missile, or fair/zair. Unstaled SPR kills her ~140% if not a little earlier from what's been tested, though how much DI affects it remains to be seen, but Ridley being at somewhere high % with rage can help it kill even earlier depending. |
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Her grab is 15 frames in startup & 37 in end lag, so you can dash attack her shield and jump or spotdodge and you'll still avoid a shield grab in time. Zair's 40 frames of end lag can allow you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop that is, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
Her grab is 15 frames in startup & 37 in end lag, so you can whiff punish with even something like Wing Blitz forward. Her shield grab is frame 19, so you can dash attack her shield and jump or spotdodge and you'll still avoid a shield grab in time. Zair's 40 frames of end lag can allow you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop that is, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (101-108%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (101-108%) |
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There's also this Ridley-Samus matchup doc that was made; contains some of what was mentioned here, but also a lot that wasn't, and linking it here is more convenient than extracting everything from it. |
Major credit to Sapphire on the counterplay to Samus f-air. There's also this Ridley-Samus matchup doc that was made; contains some of what was mentioned here, but also a lot that wasn't, and linking it here is more convenient than extracting everything from it. |
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_MBDK79m22WquExKpv69txqKSirsx6rT1nYVDKGVbU0/edit |
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_MBDK79m22WquExKpv69txqKSirsx6rT1nYVDKGVbU0/edit |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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When Dark Samus does her up B and as she lands, she bounces on the ground, whereas Samus just falls and lags. This gives Dark Samus an important mixup on stages with plats since she can land on the plat but then potentially bounce away from it and sometimes even evade things like our up tilt. |
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No differences recorded so far. |
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There's also the better roll Dark Samus sports that gives her more distance but doesn't turn into a morph ball. |
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}} |
}} |
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Octoslash is easy to ledge trump (shorthop > airdodge down into ledge or fullhop while facing ledge > down angle Wing Blitz to snap to it) and punish. Off stage nair as well as a timely down angle f-tilt beats out every Blade Dash (up B 1) recovery to ledge. When you see a Seph up B, count to 2, and if it's still charging, then it's Octoslash. Bair may not always be a true ledge trump punish, but trumping will still make him have to regrab ledge which opens up all sorts of punishes with less to no ledge intangibility. |
Octoslash is easy to ledge trump (shorthop > airdodge down into ledge or fullhop while facing ledge > down angle Wing Blitz to snap to it) and punish. Off stage nair as well as a timely down angle f-tilt beats out every Blade Dash (up B 1) recovery to ledge. When you see a Seph up B, count to 2, and if it's still charging, then it's Octoslash. Bair may not always be a true ledge trump punish, but trumping will still make him have to regrab ledge which opens up all sorts of punishes with less to no ledge intangibility. |
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Blade Dash is 25 frames of startup, while Octoslash is 36 frames. |
Blade Dash is 25 frames of startup, while Octoslash is 36 frames. Also, a well timed and placed dair beats Blade Dash. |
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* Megaflare/Gigaflare |
* Megaflare/Gigaflare |
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* Octaslash |
* Octaslash |
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Although his grab range is poor as mentioned, his grab game itself is pretty rewarding. He has the b-throw > bair kill confirm, so watch out for it depending on his position, his f-throw can setup a tech chase even at 0% (so don't miss tech), and his other throws combo. |
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While the Winged form can activate as low as 30% if Sephiroth is two stocks behind the opponent, it conversely activates as late as 110% if Sephiroth is two stocks ahead; so you don't have to worry about it as much if he gets an early lead on you. Winged suffers from consistency issues similarly to Lucario's Aura, in that Sephiroth will have to play very carefully if he is to keep his advantage, which is easier said than done due to his noticeable frailty. Added with the damage-based armor on Seph's smash attacks when he has Wing, frequent usage of said smashes can make him more predictable and open to being punished. |
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His f-smash, u-smash, Scintilla, and Octoslash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out eight frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, our dair comes out five frames faster than his uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup, though only do so if you have the timing down right and you're confident it'll hit him. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are punished by at least nair OoS, while u-smash up close is punished by Rid f-smash, or u-smash OoS. His d-tilt, f-smash, and blade dash up B are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe though, so reset there unless they're poorly spaced (said dair is u-smash punishable). If you happen to shield side B, neutral B, or missed counter up close, it's punished by our aerials/grab and u-smash OoS. Can f/d-smash for Octoslash crossup as mentioned above, or turnaround Skewer with how punishable it is. |
His normals are punished by at least nair OoS, while u-smash up close is punished by Rid f-smash, or u-smash OoS. His d-tilt, f-smash, and blade dash up B are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe though, so reset there unless they're poorly spaced (said dair is u-smash punishable). If you happen to shield side B, neutral B, or missed counter up close, it's punished by our aerials/grab and u-smash OoS. Can f/d-smash for Octoslash crossup as mentioned above, or turnaround Skewer or Wing Blitz Forward with how punishable it is. |
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Jab 1/2/3, most of u-tilt, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, point-blank flare, up B (both versions), missed counter (4 hits & -25), and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Jab 1/2/3, most of u-tilt, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, point-blank flare, up B (both versions), missed counter (4 hits & -25), and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Sheik's up smash requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 19 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same for her uair hits except they have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
Sheik's up smash requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 19 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same for her uair hits except they have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
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Her u-smash and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Sheik's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some punished by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so either challenge them directly or reset if shielded. Same with burst grenade. Vanish you punish like you would Zelda's up B, point-blank needles are OoS aerial/grab punished, and bouncing fish as mentioned is punishable with whatever on shield if you react quick enough and catch her landing; even if she airdodges. Can try shorthop skewer OoS to catch her landing in that instance. |
Sheik's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some punished by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so either challenge them directly or reset if shielded. Same with burst grenade. Vanish you punish like you would Zelda's up B, point-blank needles are OoS aerial/grab punished, and bouncing fish as mentioned is punishable with whatever on shield if you react quick enough and catch her landing; even if she airdodges. Can try shorthop skewer OoS or Wing Blitz forward to catch her landing in that instance. |
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Rapid jab finisher, dash attack, u-smash, d-smash, down B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Rapid jab finisher, dash attack, u-smash, d-smash, down B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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Aside from his up B OoS being frame 10 and his shield grab being frame 11, his OoS options are worse than ours, with nair/jab taking 16 frames and fair/uair/dair taking 17 frames. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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When being ledgetrapped, be careful about trying a ledge neutral getup, since his up smash covers that well. |
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His jab 3, smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational; same with our dair coming out three frames faster than his uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out faster than his and his ground game is worse, so while it's not recommended to be close to him, if you end up being there, worse for him. |
Our jab 1 comes out faster than his and his ground game is worse, so while it's not recommended to be close to him, if you end up being there, worse for him. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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The Belmonts might be more manageable on a Battlefield stage where you have plats to avoid their projectiles more easily as well as doing plat setups of your own. Regardless, axe throw shouldn't be hitting you when you can either cancel it out with nair, timingly advance towards Belmont and it misses, or double jump over if feeling bold. Holy cross you can react to by buffering nair similarly or either shield or jump over as you slowly approach (or react with plasma/jumping plasma so they have a projectile to watch out for), though like with Link boomerangs, watch out for it on the way back (if you grab and d-throw them at the right time, the invincibility frames of d-throw will protect you from the returning projectile, and can pummel while waiting). Holy water just try to shield as much as you can and SDI out of it when hit. The holy water ledge trap of theirs can easily be avoided by just ledge jumping over them, and the water itself doesn't do much damage when you're at ledge. |
The Belmonts might be more manageable on a Battlefield stage where you have plats to avoid their projectiles more easily as well as doing plat setups of your own. Regardless, axe throw shouldn't be hitting you when you can either cancel it out with nair, timingly advance towards Belmont and it misses (they can still buffer f-tilt that'll keep you from rushing in on them after a whiffed axe toss, so remember dash shielding), or double jump over if feeling bold. Holy cross you can react to by buffering nair similarly or either shield or jump over as you slowly approach (or react with plasma/jumping plasma so they have a projectile to watch out for), though like with Link boomerangs, watch out for it on the way back (if you grab and d-throw them at the right time, the invincibility frames of d-throw will protect you from the returning projectile, and can pummel while waiting). Holy water just try to shield as much as you can and SDI out of it when hit. The holy water ledge trap of theirs can easily be avoided by just ledge jumping over them, and the water itself doesn't do much damage when you're at ledge. |
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Still have to watch out for his other options when being ledgetrapped of course. In this matchup particularly, ledge rolling is typically the lowest risk option while the Belmonts are ledgetrapping, since most of the time they'll just be reacting with a sour unspaced f-tilt. That said, you're asking for the worst if you do a ledge neutral getup, with all the ways Belmont covers that option, but it can be used as a mixup even though holding shield after is your only option to deny the immediate holy water they're gonna throw out (assuming it doesn't stuff your neutral getup already), and even after shielding the holy water you'll still have to deal with f-tilt/bair pressure that you can't guarantee a punish against without a correct read. |
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For their whip itself, mainly remember they can angle their f-smash up and down, so don’t be too obvious with shorthop approaches and ledge stalling. Their fair and bair they can angle as well, which is sort of a problem when trying to catch their landing with a spaced d-tilt since they may still be able to hit you even when crouched (along with maybe dropping an axe or holy water as mixups from above). Their u-tilt doesn't have a diagonal blind spot for you to get in on, but their u-smash and uair does, though still have to watch out for axe and uppercut mixups when getting in on them that way. |
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Aside from when holy water is running out, mainly ledge jump if they're just waiting at roll distance to f-tilt you, and when you're trying to get off the ledge under any circumstance, you shouldn't be attacking your way out like with nair since usually you'll get outranged by Belmont every time; just do a neutral reset after getting off the ledge successfully. |
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For their whip itself, mainly remember they can angle their f-smash up and down, so don’t be too obvious with shorthop approaches and ledge stalling. Their fair and bair they can angle as well, which is sort of a problem when trying to catch their landing with a spaced d-tilt since they may still be able to hit you even when crouched (along with maybe dropping an axe or holy water as mixups from above), although Belmont's fair/bair comes out frame 14, making it sort of reactable. Their u-tilt doesn't have a diagonal blind spot for you to get in on, but their u-smash and uair does, though still have to watch out for axe and uppercut mixups when getting in on them that way. |
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For some more on holy water, he can't B-reverse it. You can pummel to disable holy water and get a normal d-throw punish by doing so; just have to buffer 2 pummels like you normally would with later % grabs. If you buffer even one pummel it gives you a good time to react to the positioning of holy water, deciding whether you want to pummel again to disable the projectile or d-throw to get a combo going. If you aren't confident you can grab though, a drift in and out nair will work as a punish since it's disjointed enough to escape from holy water. Also, if holy water hits your shield point blank, you can grab Belmonts before they can act. |
For some more on holy water, he can't B-reverse it. You can pummel to disable holy water and get a normal d-throw punish by doing so; just have to buffer 2 pummels like you normally would with later % grabs. If you buffer even one pummel it gives you a good time to react to the positioning of holy water, deciding whether you want to pummel again to disable the projectile or d-throw to get a combo going. If you aren't confident you can grab though, a drift in and out nair will work as a punish since it's disjointed enough to escape from holy water. Also, if holy water hits your shield point blank, you can grab Belmonts before they can act. |
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Otherwise, remember the spacings and openings + |
Otherwise, remember the spacings and openings + maneuvers in which you can plasma in neutral (while he's camping with his own projectiles) that makes it easier to approach him. Mainly do said approaches with pivot f-tilt and extended dash cancel d-tilt; while I mentioned the ways in which you can do so from the air, that's mainly if you're forced to like when you've been launched, and if you're too stationary with plasma while he's not using projectiles, you'll get punished by fair/bair. |
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That aside, they're easy to gimp with their poor recovery. A tough matchup for sure with their range, but still more forgivable than other zoners. |
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Belmonts are easy to gimp with their poor recovery, though otherwise during advantage, still have to watch out for their buffered up B's out of hitstun, every spotdodge > d-tilt out of the corner, and the continually buffered shorthop bair's they use to deny center stage. A tough matchup for sure with their range, but still more forgivable than other zoners. |
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We can punish Belmont's f-tilt with d-tilt OoS after they f-tilt your shield 3 times. On the 3rd if you shield you can d-tilt immediately but if you get hit with the sweetspot of f-tilt (the ball at the end) you can only punish after 4 f-tilts. |
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If you overextend your advantage on stage, you'll be hit by a buffered up B or disrupted by a double jump backward into dair; aside from his setups with cross and holy water, late hit dair > up B is a kill confirm of his. |
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When it comes to intercepting them on their path to the ledge, their tether distance gives them the freedom to stall in very low spots, but otherwise share the same weakness as other tethers like when you intercept their path to ledge. Belmonts particularly can mostly only tether in horizontal adjacent spots though with fair/bair; while he can tether vertically with uair, he'd rather up B in that spot to have a hitbox out. In any case, if you've punish their tether options enough, they'll start mixing in directional airdodges. |
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While plasma is great at forcing a route commitment, with either them burning a jump to get over it or committing extremely low to get under it, Belmont also has cross which absorbs a few fireballs before being forcefully sent back that can allow them to slip through if they're fast enough. That said, if you go off stage against them to aerial, be careful about approaching them horizontally due to cross. It's still a commitment on their end though, since they're sacrificing their air momentum and stalling in place to keep you out, meaning a lot of the time they need to pick an option immediately after whether it's an angled tether or their double jump. |
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When a full stream of plasma breath interacts with cross, a few fireballs will be absorbed, but the rest will deny an entire lower area for a moment. Belmont players know this however and will do whatever they can to wait it out, or just not exist in that area whether it's choosing to tether into an immediate ledge grab rather than stalling, or burning a whole double jump before making the tether/airdodge in. The better Belmont's will also mix in early up B's to swat away Ridley's that try extending on them after their used double jump. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Holy water requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Belmont multihits: dash attack (6 hits), nair (7 hits), holy water (9 hits) |
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Belmont 2 frames us with: Final hit dash attack, close d-smash, fair, bair, dair, axe, holy water |
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We can punish Belmont's f-tilt with d-tilt OoS after they f-tilt your shield 3 times. On the 3rd if you shield you can d-tilt immediately but if you get hit with the sweetspot of f-tilt (the ball at the end) you can only punish after 4 f-tilts. You can also shorthop OoS after their 1st f-tilt on shield to make the 2nd one whiff. |
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His smashes are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out a couple frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, our dair comes out three frames faster than his uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup, though only do so if you have the right timing and you're confident it'll hit him. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case. His dash attack ( |
Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case. His dash attack (-26 on shield) crosses you up when shielded, so turn around quick and punish accordingly with f-tilt. Simon's other normals besides f-tilt are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab up close. His jab 2/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-25) are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. D-tilt 1 and 2 is even punished by Rid f-smash when shielded (shield drop dash attack is more consistent though), and his f-smash is shield punished by most of our burst options. His landing aerials besides nair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Axe is safe on shield which you'll mostly want to be avoiding anyway (swat it away with an aerial if expecting it when you're doing a jump-in), partly because of its shield damage. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (100-107%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (100-107%) |
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Major credit to Sapphire on how we can punish Belmont f-tilt, |
Major credit to Sapphire on how we can punish Belmont f-tilt, to Kyoki on the specific info for holy water & what Belmont 2-frames us with, and to Smub on more of the specifics of escaping Belmont ledgetrapping and advantage state versus them. |
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Some item labbing counterplay- |
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# https://x.com/TheZepDragon/status/1366946827560505344 |
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# https://x.com/5AIT0ART/status/1593633832816746500 |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Snake multihits- nair & dair (4 hits) |
Snake multihits- nair & dair (4 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation, and with Snake particularly you'll have to delay it a bit so you can snatch him under his cypher. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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With them having a frame 4 airdodge, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource. |
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His jab 3, fair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Although his fair can spike, it has 23 frames of startup, so is possible to hit him with our aerials beforehand. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 4,291: | Line 5,025: | ||
** If not charged (where it glows gold), it will do a hop at the start. |
** If not charged (where it glows gold), it will do a hop at the start. |
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** Can be charged for 6 seconds. |
** Can be charged for 6 seconds. |
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** Release window is frame 17. |
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** A single hit attack. |
** A single hit attack. |
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** Most of the time will stop in front of a shield unless its fully charged. |
** Most of the time will stop in front of a shield unless its fully charged. |
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** Full charge crosses up on shield. |
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** Sonic will jump upward once pressing jump. |
** Sonic will jump upward once pressing jump. |
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** Grounded release has 6 frames of invulnerability. |
** Grounded release has 6 frames of invulnerability. |
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** Sonic can do a Spin Dash air pivot to alter his direction midair while keeping horizontal momentum. |
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* {{clr|special|Spin Charge}} (Down Special) |
* {{clr|special|Spin Charge}} (Down Special) |
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** Will not hop after any charge. |
** Will not hop after any charge. |
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** Can be charged for 11 seconds. |
** Can be charged for 11 seconds. |
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** Release window is frame 15. |
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** A multihit attack. |
** A multihit attack. |
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** Will always cross up shield. |
** Will always cross up shield; same for aerial Spin Charge. |
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** Sonic will jump at an arc once pressing jump. |
** Sonic will jump at an arc once pressing jump. |
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** TEST if this move transcends plasma breath |
** TEST if this move transcends plasma breath |
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** Aerial Spin Charge can cover more horizontal ground than aerial Spin Dash. |
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** Aerial variant will lose its hitbox if Sonic is not going fast enough. |
** Aerial variant will lose its hitbox if Sonic is not going fast enough. |
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** Aerial Spin Charge when held back sends Sonic in an "arc". |
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</small> |
</small> |
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Another thing that lets you know easier when Sonic is using Spin Dash instead of Spin Charge is that as he is spindashing, he moves a little backwards, while in Spin Charge, he stays in place. Also, grounded Spin Charge is much more unsafe on shield, making it more punishable on crossup if it's not charged enough. |
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===== Gameplan ===== |
===== Gameplan ===== |
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Notes: |
Notes: |
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Line 4,310: | Line 5,054: | ||
</small> |
</small> |
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Sonic may also charge his |
Sonic may also charge his Homing Attack (neutral B). It charges longer, deals more damage, and is effective against projectiles & shield depending on how much health it has. When bracing yourself for it, don't roll or spot-dodge too soon, as he'll punish on reaction. If your shield's still big, then can hold it to block, but if it's small, then you're likely to get poked, in which case it's best to dodge the Homing special right when Sonic attacks. Requires some timing and practice, but if you get it, he has lots of lag when he hits the ground and can do a good punish on him. If he uses neutral B to ledgetrap, airdodge on stage. |
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Ridley's punish options for |
Ridley's punish options for Homing Attack on shield: |
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* Up Smash (front)- True if Sonic is positioned correctly. Works better when he hits your shield from above. |
* Up Smash (front)- True if Sonic is positioned correctly. Works better when he hits your shield from above. |
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* Fair/bair- True for most if not all homing attack spacings. |
* Fair/bair- True for most if not all homing attack spacings. |
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''Most of these two frame options can be beaten out by doing a beefy up special (especially Sonic's spring).''</small> |
''Most of these two frame options can be beaten out by doing a beefy up special (especially Sonic's spring).''</small> |
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Also respect his edgeguarding, between fair, bair, dair spike (tech it), uair, |
Also respect his edgeguarding, between fair, bair, dair spike (tech it), uair, Homing Attack, and spring (up B) which may gimp if not careful like after an airdodge. His recovery's good, so can go deeper than you'd might expect. Watch as he comes out, don't do anything predictable like an immediate jump, and mix up your recovery, especially when it's easier for him to do a Homing Attack edgeguard on bigger characters. You can preemptively nair off stage to beat it or at least trade with it, although a good Sonic can just preemptively beat your up B with Homing. |
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Sonic can airdodge our combos at 0%, though will usually opt not to but is a option to keep in mind. He has plenty options to mixup what he can do, his light weight and small hurtbox makes most combos not go up to very high %; d-throw > u-tilt at 25-50% will trap him into a grab or hit him with u-tilt. |
Sonic can airdodge our combos at 0%, though will usually opt not to but is a option to keep in mind. He has plenty options to mixup what he can do, his light weight and small hurtbox makes most combos not go up to very high %; d-throw > u-tilt at 25-50% will trap him into a grab or hit him with u-tilt. |
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Attempting to juggle him is mostly pointless unless he has already used his jump or up B (can't use specials or jump after using up B). |
Attempting to juggle him is mostly pointless unless he has already used his jump or up B (can't use specials or jump after using up B, but he can aerial or airdodge as mentioned). |
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For Sonic's options in disadvantage, he has a frame 2 airdodge, frame 4 spring (many Sonic's like to up B past the ledge and surprise the opponent with a bair which you can space around and punish), dair mixup, and all his specials will mixup his movement with |
For Sonic's options in disadvantage, he has a frame 2 airdodge, frame 4 spring (many Sonic's like to up B past the ledge and surprise the opponent with a bair which you can space around and punish), dair mixup, and all his specials will mixup his movement with Homing Attack stalling him in the air, Spin Dash doing a small hop with invulnerability and then charging right forward, with him being able to cancel spin dash/spin charge with a jump to move around. |
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Can exploit grabbing ledge when they’re off stage so that when they commit to Homing Attack, they just shoot straight into the lower blast zone. |
Can exploit grabbing ledge when they’re off stage so that when they commit to Homing Attack, they just shoot straight into the lower blast zone. |
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If they like to do an uncharged Homing Attack at first, just spot dodge. Whiff punishing through that will force them to start charging it and mix up their timings. |
If they like to do an uncharged Homing Attack at first, just spot dodge. Whiff punishing through that will force them to start charging it and mix up their timings. If he doesn't charge his Homing Attack for long and goes straight at you, can punish with f-smash but mainly as a read. Likewise, if he misses a Homing Attack and slams against the floor, is good to know to Skewer punish it. |
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Shorthop SPR beats Spin Dash from the corner. Otherwise though, dash attack can be more consistent. Also remember our grab is active for 3 frames which can be used and timed consistently as well. Of course, Sonic can choose to jump and escape the threat range of all such grounded options before spin dashing. |
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Shorthop SPR beats Spin Dash from the corner. |
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One thing that lets you know easier when Sonic is using spindash instead of spincharge is that as he is spindashing, he moves a little backwards, while in spincharge, he stays in place. |
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Sonic's dash attack as expected crosses up on shield, but is pretty punishable. |
Sonic's dash attack as expected crosses up on shield, but is pretty punishable. |
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When he has to recover from high, he’s stuck in a momentum since his air acceleration is bad; just have to watch out for his aerials if you go out to attack him. |
When he has to recover from high, he’s stuck in a momentum since his air acceleration is bad; just have to watch out for his aerials if you go out to attack him. Otherwise, take advantage of his bad air acceleration by juggling him. |
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If he doesn't charge his homing attack for long and goes straight at you, can punish with f-smash but mainly as a read. Likewise, if he misses a homing attack and slams against the floor, is good to know to skewer punish it. |
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Wait until hearing the sound effect of their up B and then f-tilt soon after; not immediately but a bit after. That's how you 2 frame him. |
Wait until hearing the sound effect of their up B and then f-tilt soon after; not immediately but a bit after. That's how you 2 frame him. |
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Sonic multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (~5 hits) |
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His u-smash is invulnerable on frames 14-18, side B on frames 17-22 during chargeup, and up B on frames 5-7. |
His u-smash is invulnerable on frames 14-18, side B on frames 17-22 during chargeup, and up B on frames 5-7. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Sonic multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (~5 hits) |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His jab 3 is -26 & can be shorthop SPR OoS punished, while dash attack is -38 on shield and so can be punished with shorthop turnaround skewer OoS, etc. Likewise his u-smash is -29 which is f-smash punishable, and d-smash is -34 which is skewer punishable with some shield pushback (shorthop skewer OoS may be better). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Same goes for spin dash (side B) which is + on everything, but shielding’s still better than being hit by it. Homing attack however can be from -22 to -16 on shield, and spin charge (down B) is -33 unless it’s the jump aerial version which is -1. |
His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His jab 3 is -26 & can be shorthop SPR OoS punished, while dash attack is -38 on shield and so can be punished with shorthop turnaround skewer OoS, etc. Likewise his u-smash is -29 which is f-smash punishable, and d-smash is -34 which is skewer punishable with some shield pushback (shorthop skewer OoS may be better). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Same goes for spin dash (side B) which is + on everything, but shielding’s still better than being hit by it. Homing attack however can be from -22 to -16 on shield, and spin charge (down B) is -33 unless it’s the jump aerial version which is -1. |
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His jab 3, f-tilt, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, possibly |
His jab 3, f-tilt, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, possibly Homing Attack (but have to move in with how it bounces off shield a little), grounded Spin Charge (-33), and ledge getup attack (-27) are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 4,405: | Line 5,151: | ||
That all said, when shielding Thundaga, be aware that he can run up and grab during the last hit, so evade accordingly. Delay your recovery to ledge if he has Thundaga active. |
That all said, when shielding Thundaga, be aware that he can run up and grab during the last hit, so evade accordingly. Delay your recovery to ledge if he has Thundaga active. |
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If Blizzaga is active, be more wary about throwing out long range hitboxes (d-tilt, etc) than you otherwise would in neutral since even the tip of those moves can allow him to freeze you if he's close enough. That said, if you use a spaced d-tilt and it's not close enough to hit him, it may bait Sora to throw out Blizzaga, making it whiff. When frozen by it, mix up your mashing speed. At high %, may want to mash out slower so that you don't pop out right when Sora uses his up B to KO you and instead break free after that move is done. After the ice though, some Sora's also go for a landing uair since even if you mash out slower, they can still punish, so gotta mix up the timing. |
If Blizzaga is active, be more wary about throwing out long range hitboxes (d-tilt, etc) than you otherwise would in neutral since even the tip of those moves can allow him to freeze you if he's close enough. That said, if you use a spaced d-tilt and it's not close enough to hit him, it may bait Sora to throw out Blizzaga, making it whiff. When frozen by it, mix up your mashing speed. At high %, may want to mash out slower so that you don't pop out right when Sora uses his up B to KO you and instead break free after that move is done. After the ice though, some Sora's also go for a landing uair since even if you mash out slower, they can still punish, so gotta mix up the timing. Blizzaga also does a lot of shield damage. |
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Line 4,421: | Line 5,167: | ||
* Dash attack has intangibility on foot during frames 7-18. |
* Dash attack has intangibility on foot during frames 7-18. |
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Otherwise, just anti-air Sora whenever you can, being a floaty who will spend most of his time in the air. Even just up tilt can keep him juggled for awhile if you play it patiently with him. Sora has one of the worst grab ranges too. His key blade itself also isn't as long as that of other swordies. For ledgetrapping with Rid d-smash, do so mid range with how quick his ledge roll is. |
Otherwise, just anti-air Sora whenever you can, being a floaty who will spend most of his time in the air, although he also has bad airspeed and ground speed. Even just up tilt can keep him juggled for awhile if you play it patiently with him. Sora has one of the worst grab ranges too. His key blade itself also isn't as long as that of other swordies. For ledgetrapping with Rid d-smash, do so mid range with how quick his ledge roll is. |
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Line 4,429: | Line 5,175: | ||
When Sora mashes side B near ledge without yet grabbing it, we can 2 frame him with f-smash and such. |
When Sora mashes side B near ledge without yet grabbing it, we can 2 frame him with f-smash and such. |
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Aerial sweep (Sora's up B) does not hit behind him on startup, and Sora is vulnerable to spikes (i.e. our dair) since the move does not hit directly above him; except during the last hit where the keyblade aims upward, so be fast if you're going to spike him before that or before he transitions into his side B. It's still possible to dair him during the 1st hit of his side B at least depending on the timing. Also, may want to delay your dair in case he stalls off stage with a magic spell first, which is common before he does up B. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Sonic blade slows down slightly upon hitting a shield (although given the short amount of time it takes to transition between hits, punishing the move can prove to be difficult), while Sora cannot input any actions if the move concludes in the air, making him very vulnerable. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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For SDI on Sora, wait until the last hit of multi-hits like f-tilt, u-tilt, nair, fair, and up B, because those give you considerably more hitlag frames to perform needed SDI inputs, while the first couple hits only give you 1 hitlag frame to do so. That said, the single hit version of f-tilt and all three hits of sonic blade are more generous with their hitlag frames for you to SDI. |
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* Only the tipper hitbox covering the end of the keyblade makes nair looping possible, as it gives more frames of hitstun than the other two hitboxes. The tipper is also the lowest priority hitbox, so if it overlaps any with the other two, Sora will lose a good few frames of hitstun advantage, making nair loops not true. Sora having enough rage also messes up his nair loop game. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Sora has a fast grab to compensate for his earlier mentioned lack of range compared to other swordsmen and short grab range, with b-throw at ledge being a potential kill move at high %, and his other throws that combo. |
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Despite his high amount of active attack frames, he has below average frame data in his moveset, making it hard for him to escape from combos. With that and the earlier mentioned low fall speed, air speed, and ground speeds, he is particularly susceptible to wall of pain combos like with our f-air. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 4,450: | Line 5,212: | ||
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-89%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-89%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-94%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-94%) |
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Proof of concept on skewer OoS punishing 3rd hit of side B- |
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https://x.com/TheZepDragon/status/1450334042860183553 |
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}} |
}} |
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* Skewering a Steve hitting the crafting table is relevant sometimes. Not needing to stale any other move helps. Only go for it though when you know he has a lot of mixups and won't react in time. Tilts also work if you need to quickly remove the table and reset (safely break the table with them though, don't constantly give up positioning but breaking it with your pressure), but the skewer one hit is nice. |
* Skewering a Steve hitting the crafting table is relevant sometimes. Not needing to stale any other move helps. Only go for it though when you know he has a lot of mixups and won't react in time. Tilts also work if you need to quickly remove the table and reset (safely break the table with them though, don't constantly give up positioning but breaking it with your pressure), but the skewer one hit is nice. |
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Depending on the timing, you might be able to ledge jump over a ledge placed TNT explosion, and then do a landing aerial to continue disrupting his mining. |
Depending on the timing, you might be able to ledge jump over a ledge placed TNT explosion, and then do a landing aerial to continue disrupting his mining. Doing a ledge getup attack cancels the TNT ignition too (specifically, attacking a TNT that has redstone coming off of it which gets rid of the redstone and renders the pressure plate useless), while plasma ignites it. Also too, a beefy Wing Blitz up will displace a TNT at ledge and push it a little further back, making it go off. Just keep the pressure up which is his main weakness. |
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People are way too afraid of diamond and over-respecting it. It's a dumb part of his kit, sure, but people go gorilla mode and think they have to just be in his face constantly when in reality a slow but consistent mid-range pressure like Ridley's usual gameplan is more effective. Get too close and you have to deal with Steve up tilt or whatnot. |
People are way too afraid of diamond and over-respecting it. It's a dumb part of his kit, sure, but people go gorilla mode and think they have to just be in his face constantly when in reality a slow but consistent mid-range pressure like Ridley's usual gameplan is more effective. Get too close and you have to deal with Steve up tilt or whatnot. |
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Another way to look at mining, it's not really his win condition so much as it's his tool to make you approach and go in recklessly; like the timer of Wario's waft, except in this case it's nowhere as catastrophic if he gets diamond, since when he does, his combos are easier to SDI out of due to the really high multiplier and his up tilt combos are arguably less deadly than the wood or iron ones because you'll get out of them quicker. |
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Regardless of what material they have though, if Steve mashes a jab or up tilt on your shield, jumping OoS is ill advised. Either go for a parry or a roll away if spaced, but jumping is much more a risk in that scenario, so save that resource for a better moment. |
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* One interesting kill mixup is if Steve has a block above him but is below it and he’s at high %, can grab & d-throw him so he slams in to said block, and then finish off with a smash attack. |
* One interesting kill mixup is if Steve has a block above him but is below it and he’s at high %, can grab & d-throw him so he slams in to said block, and then finish off with a smash attack. |
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https://x.com/5AIT0ART/status/1582114913107181568 |
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* Up and down smash on top of a block at early % can lead into air skewer- |
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https://x.com/SteveTechSSBU/status/1681721075799867397 |
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* If you see him approaching with a block, get out of there and don’t shield because he can melt it with d-tilt & minecart for pressure. |
* If you see him approaching with a block, get out of there and don’t shield because he can melt it with d-tilt & minecart for pressure. |
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* Use a ceiling/wall tech when it comes to blocks. Unlike wall techs however, ceiling techs leave you unactionable until 25+ frames, leaving you free for a big punish. That said, when the Steve places a block diagonally above you like when you're cornered, expect him to try and grab, avoid it, and whiff punish him to knock toward the block instead; whiff punishing with fullhop nair followed by f-smash is good for instance. Even if they don't outright die from it, you're in a good position afterward. |
* Use a ceiling/wall tech when it comes to blocks. Unlike wall techs however, ceiling techs leave you unactionable until 25+ frames, leaving you free for a big punish. That said, when the Steve places a block diagonally above you like when you're cornered, expect him to try and grab, avoid it, and whiff punish him to knock toward the block instead; whiff punishing with fullhop nair followed by f-smash is good for instance. Even if they don't outright die from it, you're in a good position afterward. |
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@ 9:58 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u96g0xM6wY |
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* Alternate way of recovering against blocks as Ridley; the wing blitz wall bounce- |
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https://x.com/RockManSSB/status/1690963353714503680 |
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Aside from breaking a corner block with an aerial where necessary (like if there's 4 blocks), mainly remember to hug the stage when recovering lower to get through the blocks, which you should be doing anyway in some other matchup situations. |
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* The SPR wall slam can even catch Steve if he's standing at ledge rather than standing on the block- |
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https://x.com/WeNeed2BanSonic/status/1754001232409289061 |
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* If you see Steve anvil dair and place a block next to himself, watch out since him attacking it gives him a big aerial boost which he can set up a combo off of. |
* If you see Steve anvil dair and place a block next to himself, watch out since him attacking it gives him a big aerial boost which he can set up a combo off of. |
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* How you can fullhop nair over the three block wall as Ridley- |
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https://x.com/Mezcaul/status/1777037430081609949 |
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* Proof of concept for using anvil as a wall for SPR wall slam before it disappears- |
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https://x.com/oke_kyoki/status/1813697880525328556 |
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With how committal his up smash is during the active frames and to some extent the end lag (26 frames), it's fairly easy to get around it when trying to land, and then you can whiff punish it with the likes of SPR as you land or even skewer if lucky. |
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If shielding an unsafe move, roll away/jump OoS, making his tether grab whiff. |
If shielding an unsafe move, roll away/jump OoS, making his tether grab whiff. |
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If Steve lands with the minecart on a platform and you're under it, can punish with u-tilt or u-smash. Likewise with ledgetrapping, you can up smash OoS punish the ledge jump minecart if it starts next to you and you won't get hit. |
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Steve multihits- d-tilt (5 hits), u-smash (9 hits), d-smash (3 hits) |
Steve multihits- d-tilt (5 hits), u-smash (9 hits), d-smash (3 hits) |
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A good chunk of Steve's moves (jab/f-tilt, u-tilt, fair, bair, uair) require either about or at least 2 SDI inputs, but they have plenty frames of hitlag (varies) for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out nine frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to anvil dair with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Steve's normals are mostly too safe on shield. His dash attack is punishable with nair and grab OoS though, except when he has gold and diamond. F-smash and d-smash are at least punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab too, while his up smash is -11, so can only nair OoS against it. |
Steve's normals are mostly too safe on shield. His dash attack is punishable with nair and grab OoS though, except when he has gold and diamond. F-smash and d-smash are at least punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab too, while his up smash is -11, so can only nair OoS against it. |
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When Terry's at 100%, he has two command input moves. Buster Wolf with 8% and Power Geyser with 5% worth of armor respectively. Unlike Kazuya's rage ability, Terry maintains the ability to use GO moves until his stock ends. Power Geyser can KO anyone before 100% vertically and does high shield damage, but has more startup and ending lag than Buster Wolf, making it punishable especially if parried. Buster Wolf is a burst option that KO's anyone before 120%, but can be shielded if timed right. Also of note, Terry cannot use his GO moves while in the air |
When Terry's at 100%, he has two command input moves. Buster Wolf with 8% and Power Geyser with 5% worth of armor respectively. Unlike Kazuya's rage ability, Terry maintains the ability to use GO moves until his stock ends. Power Geyser can KO anyone before 100% vertically and does high shield damage, but has more startup and ending lag than Buster Wolf, making it punishable especially if parried. Buster Wolf is a burst option that KO's anyone before 120%, but can be shielded if timed right. Also of note, Terry cannot use his GO moves while in the air which you can use to your advantage by keeping him in the air with moves like d-tilt, in addition to him being floaty. Also take advantage of him looking for an opening to use his GO moves when he's over 100%, but don't give it to him. Be aggressive in finishing him off, within reason. |
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Like other fighting game characters, has low speed & poor recovery. Also a poor grab game. |
Like other fighting game characters, has low speed & poor recovery. Also a poor grab game. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Power Geyser is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Burning Knuckle can crossup on our shield, so punish accordingly. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out a frame faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Also note the inputted version of Power Dunk will spike during the descent. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Can OoS attack and anti-air plenty in this matchup, as he's a floaty. |
Can OoS attack and timely anti-air plenty in this matchup, as he's a floaty that loves his specials. Also remember retreating nair to neutralize some of his specials while remaining mobile. |
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His normals besides f-tilt and d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His tackle dash attack can crossup your shield a bit, so react and punish accordingly. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
His normals besides f-tilt and d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His tackle dash attack can crossup your shield a bit, so react and punish accordingly. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
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Line 4,708: | Line 5,520: | ||
His jab 3, f-smash, u-smash, d-smash, point-blank Power Wave, Burning Knuckle, Power Dunk, the two GO moves, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab 3, f-smash, u-smash, d-smash, point-blank Power Wave, Burning Knuckle, Power Dunk, the two GO moves, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Also remember retreating nair to neutralize some of his specials while remaining mobile. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 4,774: | Line 5,584: | ||
Tink’s bair has a wall of pain combo like we do with fair. |
Tink’s bair has a wall of pain combo like we do with fair. |
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Respect Tink zair which does more than Yink’s. |
Respect Tink zair which does more than Yink’s. Tink's d-throw doesn't have as much combo potential as the other two Link's, but his b-throw at ledge kills at high enough %. |
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Tink's bombs explode on impact instead of lingering like the other Link's, and his grounded spin attack (10 hits) is the fastest and deals the most knockback, but is -25 on shield. |
Tink's bombs explode on impact instead of lingering like the other Link's, and his grounded spin attack (10 hits) is the fastest and deals the most knockback, but is -25 on shield. |
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Remember too if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
Remember too if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our uair comes out six frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 4,786: | Line 5,602: | ||
Tink's normals besides d-tilt can be punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair you may be able to u-smash OoS depending on altitude, but otherwise nair OoS it. His jab 3, up B (grounded), and ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
Tink's normals besides d-tilt can be punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair you may be able to u-smash OoS depending on altitude, but otherwise nair OoS it. His jab 3, up B (grounded), and ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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Note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 34 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with |
Note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 34 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such. Also, zair's 53 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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His jab 3, smashes, grounded up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately maneuver/jump the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
His jab 3, smashes, grounded up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately maneuver/jump the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
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With lloid rocket, options for it are jump (most common one which Villager expects and counters with slingshot, so be ready to double jump or aerial/airdodge through it), shield (a decent option, but watch out for Villager trying to grab if you do and spot-dodge the grab), roll (the rocket is slow enough to avoid with it, but Villager could easily attack you if you roll, so wouldn't do it), and attack (aside from beating rocket with a couple fireballs, can also attack both it and Villager which makes the rocket explode, but have to make sure your timing is right or you'll get hit instead). |
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For lloid rocket, you can easily destroy Isabelle's mine before it comes out like with neutral moves, but with Villager's rocket that goes horizontal and can ride on as a recovery mixup, is more tricky. |
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Also, lloid rocket doesn’t become an active hitbox as soon as it spawns, so you actually have more room to hold forward; 52 frames of startup to be precise, and can also grab him during that. When he uses rocket in the air, he pauses for a second. When he does it on stage, it's usually to bait you to attack him and his landing, but he usually hits you instead, so stand your ground. |
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Options for it are jump (most common one which Villager expects and counters with slingshot, so be ready to double jump or aerial/airdodge through it), shield (a decent option, but watch out for Villager trying to grab if you do and spot-dodge the grab), roll (the rocket is slow enough to avoid with it, but Villager could easily attack you if you roll, so wouldn't do it), and attack (aside from beating rocket with a couple fireballs, can also attack both it and Villager which makes the rocket explode, but have to make sure your timing is right or you'll get hit instead). |
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Also, lloid rocket doesn’t become an active hitbox as soon as it spawns, so you actually have more room to hold forward. When he uses rocket in the air, he pauses for a second. When he does it on stage, it's usually to bait you to attack him and his landing, but he usually hits you instead, so stand your ground. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Their dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. |
Their dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. Same with his dash attack on a plat due to being a projectile that hits at mid range on someone underneath him. |
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Villager |
Villager multi-hits: u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (6 hits) |
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Villager d-smash can bury, so watch out. Also try to SDI out of his u-smash. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Timber axe is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Villager rapid jab finisher is punished by dash attack, dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. His normals are punished by more of our OoS aerials & shield grab, except his smashes. His landing aerials are also too safe. Axe is unsafe enough for us to f/d-smash punish, but it does much shield damage. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Villager rapid jab finisher is punished by dash attack, dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. His normals are punished by more of our OoS aerials & shield grab, except his smashes. His landing aerials are also too safe. Axe is unsafe enough for us to f/d-smash punish, but it does much shield damage. His grab is 14 frames in startup and 27 in end lag. |
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His rapid jab finisher, u-tilt, dash attack, and axe are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at kill confirm %. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 4,865: | Line 5,691: | ||
===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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Ridley can hit Wario on ledge with basically anything he wants. Wario’s ledge drop aerials aren’t that good either. Fair is fast but is stubby and you’ll be ledgetrapping from further ranges anyway. This means Wario is pretty standard on the ledge. He’s gotta mixup the default options to find his openings. Abuse plasma and tilts to condition and trap him. |
Ridley can hit Wario on ledge with basically anything he wants. Wario’s ledge drop aerials aren’t that good either. Fair is fast but is stubby and you’ll be ledgetrapping from further ranges anyway. This means Wario is pretty standard on the ledge. He’s gotta mixup the default options to find his openings. Abuse plasma and tilts to condition and trap him. His go-to option tends to be ledge jump since he struggles on ledge. |
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If Wario has bike off stage, he can easily get back to stage for free by going high. Ridley has a hard time intercepting this form of recovery. Wario off stage without his bike though is food for us due to not being able to contest nair, fair, or bair off stage, along with his linear recovery without bike. |
If Wario has bike off stage, he can easily get back to stage for free by going high. Ridley has a hard time intercepting this form of recovery. Wario off stage without his bike though is food for us due to not being able to contest nair, fair, or bair off stage, along with his linear recovery without bike. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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If you're being combo'd, you want to SDI away from plats, and if you're getting combo'd on a plat you want to SDI up. If Wario still has waft, you want to SDI towards center. |
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Keep in mind he can do uair > waft as a shield break if your shield’s not at full health. Also, fully charged waft on its own that passively charges over time has super armor. |
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If you do a landing pivot (holding the other direction as you land which makes you turn that direction in the process), you can punish his lingering nair with the back hit of our up smash. |
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Remember that Wario will play patiently by floating in and out of your range while gathering waft, an example being floating in and out with his aerials to safely poke in neutral. Also be careful of moves that whiff against smaller characters which he can whiff punish with his up tilt and then combo. |
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Up throw is his combo throw, making it dangerous on platform stages. |
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His fair OoS puts you in a tech chase situation, so be ready to tech when you see that stubby jump kick. |
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D-tilt > dash attack is a Wario kill confirm, so watch out at higher %, and jump OoS since d-tilt's safe on shield. His up tilt, nair, and uair also confirm into waft. Keep in mind he can do uair > waft as a shield break if your shield’s not at full health. Also, fully charged waft on its own that passively charges over time has super armor. |
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Bite is mashable. |
Bite is mashable. |
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His up smash has head intangibility on frames 8-14. |
His up smash has head intangibility on frames 8-14. |
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If you get him off his bike, can help to not use it up against him or destroy it instantly, and instead keep it on the ground like near the corner as long as possible to keep it out of play. |
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Dair is 7 hits, so remember when shielding with it being unsafe. It also hits us easily under platforms. |
Dair is 7 hits, so remember when shielding with it being unsafe. It also hits us easily under platforms. |
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His f-smash, u-smash, bair, uair, and Waft are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out well before his, so always use up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out well before his, so always use up close. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info, and credit to Capo on SDI against Wario. |
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}} |
}} |
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Their nair is probably their best combo starter. It deals plenty damage (especially with deep breathing), and is decent at shield poking, so angle your shield if needed. Also remember their other weird hitboxes, as their initial jab, u-tilt, f-tilt, and f-smash can hit from behind too. Their fair can hit normally in the front, but spike in the back. |
Their nair is probably their best combo starter. It deals plenty damage (especially with deep breathing), and is decent at shield poking, so angle your shield if needed. Also remember their other weird hitboxes, as their initial jab, u-tilt, f-tilt, and f-smash can hit from behind too. Their fair can hit normally in the front, but spike in the back. |
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While Wii Fit fights well in both short range and long range due to their strong projectiles and hard-hitting normals, they struggle at mid-range as a result of lack of range on their tilts and aerials. This of course is where Ridley excels and can give them difficulty in approaching, with them having to rely more on the ball to do so. Wii Fit's also pretty floaty. |
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They're floaty, so don't have the best approach. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Their u-tilt has arm intangibility on frames 3-12, while their u-smash has invulnerability on frames 9-12, so don't try to land on top of Wii Fit Trainer. |
Their u-tilt has arm intangibility on frames 3-12, while their u-smash has invulnerability on frames 9-12, so don't try to land on top of Wii Fit Trainer. |
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Don't do a ledge neutral getup if they're charging a full sun salutation, since our hurtbox is likely still big enough to be hit by it. |
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Wii Fit has one of the longest techrolls and ledge rolls in the game, which can make her hard to punish even if a roll is expected. |
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The ball is still an active hitbox even after shielding or parrying it, so watch your space. |
The ball is still an active hitbox even after shielding or parrying it, so watch your space. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Their jab 3, f-smash, u-smash, and bair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out four frames faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Their jab 3, f-smash, and u-smash is shield punishable by our own f-smash. Their other normals and two projectile specials are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their d-smash & ledge getup attack (-27) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
Their jab 3, f-smash, and u-smash is shield punishable by our own f-smash. Their other normals and two projectile specials are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their d-smash & ledge getup attack (-27) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Wolf dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 14 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. His side B that spikes is 18 frames in startup. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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* F-smash on head during frames 12-16 and and u-smash on foot during frames 11-13. |
* F-smash on head during frames 12-16 and and u-smash on foot during frames 11-13. |
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* During neutral B. |
* During neutral B. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Other notes- |
Other notes- |
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* Ridley's non-jab grounded attacks all break it past 86% with no rage. |
* Ridley's non-jab grounded attacks all break it past 86% with no rage. |
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* Ridley's aerial attacks all break it past 105% with no rage. |
* Ridley's aerial attacks all break it past 105% with no rage. |
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* While on a platform, skewer can catch Yoshi double jumping onto it while ignoring the DJ armor. |
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* F-tilt and nair beat every hitbox Yoshi has except tongue grabs. |
* F-tilt and nair beat every hitbox Yoshi has except tongue grabs. |
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* All of Yoshi's aerials can cross up shield when at full airspeed. |
* All of Yoshi's aerials can cross up shield when at full airspeed. |
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* Yoshi’s grounded down B starts killing at 125% |
* Yoshi’s grounded down B starts killing at 125% |
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* Respect his grab range. |
* Respect his grab range. |
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* His f-smash and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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* We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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* Although his fair can spike, it has 16 frames of startup, so is possible to hit him with aerials beforehand. Likewise, our uair comes out five frames faster than the first hit of his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair with the right timing, although situational. |
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* Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
* Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Yink's arrows require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
Yink's arrows require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our uair comes out a couple frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Remember if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
Remember if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
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Besides rapid jab skewer punish (with shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent, though shield drop > d-smash also works), Yink's normals apart from d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while his f-smash 2 is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. His jab 3 & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are insanely safe though as previously mentioned (as well as rising bair), so reset there. |
Besides rapid jab skewer punish (with shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent, though shield drop > d-smash also works), Yink's normals apart from d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while his f-smash 2 is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. His jab 3 & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are insanely safe though as previously mentioned (as well as rising bair), so reset there. |
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Already covered his specials on shield, though note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 33 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with |
Already covered his specials on shield, though note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 33 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such (same with f-smash 2). Also, zair's 55 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately jump/maneuver the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately jump/maneuver the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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Ledgetrapping is when she's at her strongest. Phase 4 and 5 of the knight can hit ledge hang. To avoid ledgetraps, regrab the ledge; Zelda doesn't cover the regrab due to the knight forcing a timed ledge option. Can also time a getup attack to get through the knight's attack with intangibility. Her f-smash is another ledgetrap move to watch out for, as it covers everything but ledge |
Ledgetrapping is when she's at her strongest. Phase 4 and 5 of the knight can hit ledge hang. To avoid ledgetraps, regrab the ledge; Zelda doesn't cover the regrab due to the knight forcing a timed ledge option. Can also time a getup attack to get through the knight's attack with intangibility. Her f-smash is another ledgetrap move to watch out for, as it covers everything but ledge hang and ledge jump, though knight covers those two options. |
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Keep in mind that her up angle f-tilt along with u-tilt are potent anti-airs similar to our own, and with how her u-tilt lingers, can sometimes even catch you while neutral airdodging down. You don't want to be right above her anyway when trying to recover on stage from up high because of her uair, so retreat to ledge when needed if nothing else or if you're not in a position for another vertical burst option like dair. Speaking of her uair, up tilt combos into it if she hits you with the back side of up tilt, and can also combo into her bair, but like with our up tilt > uair, its timing is tight and is % dependent. At mid % where uair won't kill, she may go for an up B instead, so try and airdodge that if possible. Be wary of directional airdodging her uair left or right when landing, because she can punish you after with her up B. When dealing with her uair onslaught from up high, keep an eye out on a possible up B finisher which you should try to airdodge. |
Keep in mind that her up angle f-tilt along with u-tilt are potent anti-airs similar to our own, and with how her u-tilt lingers, can sometimes even catch you while neutral airdodging down. You don't want to be right above her anyway when trying to recover on stage from up high because of her uair, so retreat to ledge when needed if nothing else or if you're not in a position for another vertical burst option like dair. Speaking of her uair, up tilt combos into it if she hits you with the back side of up tilt, and can also combo into her bair, but like with our up tilt > uair, its timing is tight and is % dependent. At mid % where uair won't kill, she may go for an up B instead, so try and airdodge that if possible. Be wary of directional airdodging her uair left or right when landing, because she can punish you after with her up B. When dealing with her uair onslaught from up high, keep an eye out on a possible up B finisher which you should try to airdodge. |
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For her grab game, respect her pivot grab and don't make committal approaches too often like if she's backed into a corner or you face a Zelda that's competent at grabs. If you wait to shield a fully charged phantom, her grabbing will guarantee that you get hit by it. Her grab itself is slow though. Her f-throw can combo off a fully charged phantom, her d-throw is her bnb combo like most characters which you can DI but mix it up (such as DI'ing in instead of away to make her fair/bair hit on sour instead of sweetspot, and also keep in mind her d-throw gives you little time to react to tech when it launches you on a lower platform), her up throw can combo into fullhop nair and situationally uair as mentioned as well as a setup for potential kills at top platforms like with our up throw, and her up and back throws are kill throws at high %. Up throw killing though depends on weight, stage blast zone ceiling height, and DI, but if she uses up throw earlier to combo, it'll stale it. Her back throw kills earlier with that said, so remember if you're at high % and she's cornered which may be intentional for her to grab and b-throw you, though if she uses b-throw earlier for an attempted gimp, kill, or sending into a knight's path, it'll stale. |
For her grab game, respect her pivot grab and don't make committal approaches too often like if she's backed into a corner or you face a Zelda that's competent at grabs. If you wait to shield a fully charged phantom, her grabbing will guarantee that you get hit by it. Her grab itself is slow though. Her f-throw can combo off a fully charged phantom, her d-throw is her bnb combo like most characters which you can DI but mix it up (such as DI'ing in instead of away to make her fair/bair hit on sour instead of sweetspot, and also keep in mind her d-throw gives you little time to react to tech when it launches you on a lower platform), her up throw can combo into fullhop nair and situationally uair as mentioned as well as a setup for potential kills at top platforms like with our up throw, and her up and back throws are kill throws at high %. Up throw killing though depends on weight, stage blast zone ceiling height, and DI, but if she uses up throw earlier to combo, it'll stale it. Her back throw kills earlier with that said, so remember if you're at high % and she's cornered which may be intentional for her to grab and b-throw you, though if she uses b-throw earlier for an attempted gimp, kill, or sending into a knight's path, it'll stale. |
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If she has a knight ready and you're off stage, fastfall or airdodge while drifting forward to recover low and avoid the strike. |
If she has a knight ready and you're off stage, fastfall or airdodge while drifting forward to recover low and avoid the strike. If she tries to dair you for recovering low, can either delay your jumps or up B to make the dair whiff, or try to uair her as she gets into position to dair; our uair is 11 frames in startup, while her dair is 14 frames. |
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If she's traveling through the air (like off stage) while charging the knight, it will catch onto ledges behind her, even if she doesn't land on the floor herself. She typically uses it to cover two bases when edgeguarding; the knight to cover ledge, while going low herself to catch a low recovery, but when recovering, you can defend yourself with attacks such as nair or uair (try to do so before she does something like neutral B that'll knock you back or worse send you into the path of the phantom strike) before using your up B to get back to the ledge, or if you use Wing Blitz early enough, will stop her in her tracks. Also watch out for nair or Nayru's Love possibly launching you to the side of the stage, and be ready to tech so you don't get stage spiked. All and all, mix up how you deal with the knight and recovering against her; it's a mind game battle more than anything. |
If she's traveling through the air (like off stage) while charging the knight, it will catch onto ledges behind her, even if she doesn't land on the floor herself. She typically uses it to cover two bases when edgeguarding; the knight to cover ledge, while going low herself to catch a low recovery, but when recovering, you can defend yourself with attacks such as nair or uair (try to do so before she does something like neutral B that'll knock you back or worse send you into the path of the phantom strike) before using your up B to get back to the ledge, or if you use Wing Blitz early enough, will stop her in her tracks. Also watch out for nair or Nayru's Love possibly launching you to the side of the stage, and be ready to tech so you don't get stage spiked. All and all, mix up how you deal with the knight and recovering against her; it's a mind game battle more than anything. |
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If you connect an SPR on her at all, don't do the jump release in hope for an aerial setup (unless you’re at higher % than her where she can mash out), as she can counter most attempts with her aerials & specials. |
If you connect an SPR on her at all, don't do the jump release in hope for an aerial setup (unless you’re at higher % than her where she can mash out), as she can counter most attempts with her aerials & specials. |
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With them being floaty, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource, and if they manage to airdodge a followup, you can typically land with an autocancel to frame trap them and punish if you read their trajectory. Even with Ridley's up throw still having no true followup at times, can do an empty jump + fastfall to bait them to use a resource and catch their landing accordingly, which floaties have a harder time dealing with. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her fair, bair, uair, and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Aside from what was mentioned about our uair coming out before her dair, our dair likewise comes out three frames faster than her uair if you want to use it as a landing mixup, though only do so with the right timing and if you're confident it'll hit her. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Her rapid jab finisher is punished by f-smash OoS, and all of her normals besides d-tilt are punishable by at least nair OoS, though her landing aerials are too safe on shield, so neutral reset there. Her neutral B's similarly punishable if shielded up close, but gotta hold till the end of the move on the 4th hit, and since it's -25, you can shorthop SPR OoS as a response; same goes for her up smash and ledge getup attack which are -25. Her up B on the ground is -29, making it punishable by f-smash OoS. In the air however it's only -19, and can be even safer if she spaces it. |
Her rapid jab finisher is punished by f-smash OoS, and all of her normals besides d-tilt are punishable by at least nair OoS, though her landing aerials are too safe on shield, so neutral reset there. Her neutral B's similarly punishable if shielded up close, but gotta hold till the end of the move on the 4th hit, and since it's -25, you can shorthop SPR OoS as a response; same goes for her up smash and ledge getup attack which are -25. Her up B on the ground is -29, making it punishable by f-smash OoS. In the air however it's only -19, and can be even safer if she spaces it. |
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With ZSS, she'll spend most of her time in the air, so camp her from the ground with your anti-airs rather than chase her and avoid her nair and zair combo starters, having your up tilt, up angle f-tilt, up smash, nair, and such ready, along with d-tilt to cover her overextensions; otherwise just knowing how to react to Flip Jump/Kick with practice or reading it when she’s in disadvantage, along with her dair to some extent. |
With ZSS, she'll spend most of her time in the air, so camp her from the ground with your anti-airs rather than chase her and avoid her nair and zair combo starters, having your up tilt, up angle f-tilt, up smash, nair, and such ready, along with d-tilt to cover her overextensions; otherwise just knowing how to react to Flip Jump/Kick with practice or reading it when she’s in disadvantage, along with her dair to some extent. |
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Flip Jump has intangibility on frames 3 through 12. Visually, it ends when she reaches the apex of her flip, is on her way down, and around when you start seeing the blue afterimages (aka when she can kick), so don’t attack when her flip is on the way up. Timely abuse Ridley up smash and uair against it; if you're not early enough, then patiently wait till near the end of it and punish. Remember too that ZSS loses Flip Jump after using it until she touches the ground, which can be useful in off stage situations where she may be gimped, though edgeguard her quickly since she has two tethers to work with. If she tethers, can try and do an off-stage or Crouch Ledge Slip nair/fair on her, or SPR/jump plasma if she tethers high, depending. She can easily jump over charged Plasma with Flip Jump, so be careful with it, using one or two fireballs as bait, or Flickshot Plasma when retreating if you have room. Can shield Flip Kick, but with how safe it is on shield, she'll be away before you can punish as she bounces off with it. Reading/evading is the better option with how much end lag it has. In other words, pay attention to her panic options. If it's not Flip Jump, it may be dair, but that at least is more reactable, and easily punished when dodged. Dair is arguably easier to bait out too |
Flip Jump has intangibility on frames 3 through 12. Visually, it ends when she reaches the apex of her flip, is on her way down, and around when you start seeing the blue afterimages (aka when she can kick), so don’t attack when her flip is on the way up. Timely abuse Ridley up smash and uair against it; if you're not early enough, then patiently wait till near the end of it and punish. Remember too that ZSS loses Flip Jump after using it until she touches the ground, which can be useful in off stage situations where she may be gimped, though edgeguard her quickly since she has two tethers to work with. If she tethers, can try and do an off-stage or Crouch Ledge Slip nair/fair on her, or SPR/jump plasma if she tethers high, depending. She can easily jump over charged Plasma with Flip Jump, so be careful with it, using one or two fireballs as bait, or Flickshot Plasma when retreating if you have room. Can shield Flip Kick, but with how safe it is on shield, she'll be away before you can punish as she bounces off with it. Reading/evading is the better option with how much end lag it has. In other words, pay attention to her panic options. If it's not Flip Jump, it may be dair, but that at least is more reactable, and easily punished when dodged. Dair is arguably easier to bait out too. Surprisingly, she can’t airdodge fastfall too well, making her disadvantage pretty linear when she doesn’t have Flip Jump available, and is otherwise forced to dair or something. |
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Other things to note about Flip Jump/Kick: |
Other things to note about Flip Jump/Kick: |
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Aside from her nair and zair, watch out for her Blaster combo starters. Her d-smash/Blaster > up B Boost Kick kills us around 90%. If you see her charging her Blaster, can shield it if you do a dash shield, then punish with an OoS option. If they wall you out with zair's, something like a Wing Blitz forward from mid stage can be a decent mixup option to catch their landing. It can also go through Blaster, though wouldn’t rely too much on the timing. Our tilts, nair, bair, and even a single plasma beats out her Blaster too. |
Aside from her nair and zair, watch out for her Blaster combo starters. Her d-smash/Blaster > up B Boost Kick kills us around 90%. If you see her charging her Blaster, can shield it if you do a dash shield, then punish with an OoS option. If they wall you out with zair's, something like a Wing Blitz forward from mid stage can be a decent mixup option to catch their landing. It can also go through Blaster, though wouldn’t rely too much on the timing. Our tilts, nair, bair, and even a single plasma beats out her Blaster too, though wouldn't do so with f-tilt with how much its clank end lag is. |
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She has hard to punish shield pressure (even with her rising aerial, but parries help to deal with that) but little shield damage and poke (aside from her fair which can poke due to being a 2-hit move and may need to shield tilt that), so can shield well against ZSS aside from Blaster and tether grab which is more reactable than regular Samus's; move around though. Most of what ZSS can do on shield is still relatively safe, especially zair and nair. If she tries to go for an aerial, you can react with an up smash or nair OoS as a get-off-me for rising aerials (her fair and bair). Do not try to up smash ZSS’s nair OoS however, especially a landing nair. It's hugely disjointed and safe. Also watch for her jabbing on your shield, as it's difficult to punish and spammable after a landing aerial due to it being a frame 1 move, though her jab 3 you can punish |
She has hard to punish shield pressure (even with her rising aerial, but parries help to deal with that) but little shield damage and poke (aside from her fair which can poke due to being a 2-hit move and may need to shield tilt that), so can shield well against ZSS aside from Blaster and tether grab which is more reactable than regular Samus's; move around though. Most of what ZSS can do on shield is still relatively safe, especially zair and nair. If she tries to go for an aerial, you can react with an up smash or nair OoS as a get-off-me for rising aerials (her fair and bair). Do not try to up smash ZSS’s nair OoS however, especially a landing nair. It's hugely disjointed and safe. Also watch for her jabbing on your shield, as it's difficult to punish and spammable after a landing aerial due to it being a frame 1 move, though her jab 3 you can punish fine, or even just her jab 1 or jab 2 if she stops there to mix you up. Regardless, if she bounces off your shield with Flip Jump, you can follow her aerial movement with an OoS aerial if quick enough. |
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* Also watch out for Boost Kick OoS, and to DI the move, mostly DI down and in during the multi-hits, but the higher up you are when hit by her up B, the further out you must DI. DI out on the first hit may help you fall out of it. |
* Also watch out for Boost Kick OoS, and to DI the move, mostly DI down and in during the multi-hits, but the higher up you are when hit by her up B, the further out you must DI. DI out on the first hit may help you fall out of it. |
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While she can rack up damage on us pretty easily, she struggles to kill without a stun to a smash attack or Boost Kick, so at high percent, keep your head and stay focused. |
While she can rack up damage on us pretty easily, she struggles to kill without a stun to a smash attack or Boost Kick, so at high percent, keep your head and stay focused. |
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ZSS prefers to set up ledgetraps as opposed to edgeguards. None of her moves can hit you on ledge, but getting up is a different story. Her quick, low lag, big hitboxes make it hard to get back on stage. The biggest moves to watch out for are her grab, side B, and |
ZSS prefers to set up ledgetraps as opposed to edgeguards. None of her moves can hit you on ledge, but getting up is a different story. Her quick, low lag, big hitboxes make it hard to get back on stage. The biggest moves to watch out for are her grab, side B, neutral B, d-smash, and bair. They can all lead to another ledgetrap situation or even a kill in side B and Blaster's case. The short range of her aerials (barring nair) makes our ledge jump to nair a decently safe option, because it can snuff out some aerial options and provides decent protection, but it's important to watch for her up smash, nair, and other active aerials like fair. It’s important to mix up your ledge game too, with ledge drop > jump > fair, and whatnot. It just depends on the player and their habits, so be sure to pay attention, and above all, stay calm. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Even with her great speed, she still has to commit when she dashes in, and the key to understanding how she runs away or plays disadvantage is her flip jump. Once you have an understanding, hitting her becomes easier; this includes how she uses it from ledge where she can use it defensively or aggressively, so is suggested to give up a little more stage to keep the corner pressure going. |
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If she's fishing for shorthop side B's when ledgetrapping, doing a ledge jump into charged plasma can stall you followed by the fireballs hitting her. |
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# https://x.com/acroraptor/status/1878165292167102694?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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Her main throw is f-throw which sets up a tech chase starting at 18%, though to avoid being tech chased by this, you can DI up. |
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ZSS multihits- f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (2 hits), side B (5 hits) |
ZSS multihits- f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (2 hits), side B (5 hits) |
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Her dair can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there, and again, same with her d-smash. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our nair can either trade with or beat her uair, as our aerial hits first from below. Her uair comes out a couple frames sooner than our nair though, so have to anticipate and time it. |
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Aside from maybe grab, her u-tilt, f-smash, nair, and Flip Kick are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Our uair comes out three frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. For the flip kick spike, it has 9 frames in startup, so might be possible to hit her with our frame 8 nair beforehand. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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With ZSS, can also move a lot and challenge her in the air, especially when she goes for flip kick (given that you're not off stage) because if you try challenging it from the ground, miss, and get hit you're buried but if you're in the air you won't be buried. Still tech it though. |
With ZSS, can also move a lot and challenge her in the air, especially when she goes for flip kick (given that you're not off stage) because if you try challenging it from the ground, miss, and get hit you're buried but if you're in the air you won't be buried. Still tech it though. |
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Line 5,378: | Line 6,273: | ||
Her dash attack (dash back first if she crosses you up) & flip kick (dash whatever direction she's drifting) are also shield punishable by d-smash. Her jab 1/2/3, u-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, Flip Kick, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her ledge getup attack is also punished by f-smash OoS. |
Her dash attack (dash back first if she crosses you up) & flip kick (dash whatever direction she's drifting) are also shield punishable by d-smash. Her jab 1/2/3, u-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, Flip Kick, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her ledge getup attack is also punished by f-smash OoS. |
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Her grab is 15 frames in startup and 33 frames in end lag, allowing a potential whiff punish with |
Her grab is 15 frames in startup and 33 frames in end lag, allowing a potential whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such, and since her shield grab would be frame 19, could dash attack her shield and still spot-dodge it or jump, or mix in shield jumping or Double Shield Cancel fullhop to bait a whiff. Like regular Samus though, watch out for up B as her fastest possible OoS option, and only dash attack her shield if you expect her to go for a grab. |
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Also, zair's 30 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
Also, zair's 30 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-82%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-82%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-86%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-86%) |
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* If you're waiting to catch her landing with u-tilt, watch to see if she flip jumps first and act accordingly. |
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Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info. |
Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info. |
Latest revision as of 23:36, 10 February 2025


Losing
Wonderwing can be grabbed if timed right like OoS, but also watch how he uses it to recover or as a combo breaker; if he does it predictably as a horizontal recovery, can grab him with an off stage SPR followed by an aerial to kill or gimp. When shielding, you can also do a turnaround punish like some other enemy burst options; turnaround f-smash, skewer if lucky (shorthop turnaround skewer OoS for better frame advantage & positioning), and u-tilt works too with how unsafe it is on shield. Overall, watch out for him using Wonderwing when he’s in any form of disadvantage, a neutral mixup, and even advantage like when he puts you in a tech chase or if you miss tech.
Banjo d-throw buries like K Rool's, but for not as long, so can escape quick. Banjo knows this though, so he may position to attack in the air, or u-smash if you wait too long. Mix up your timing, though mashing fast followed by airdodge can work sometimes, especially if at high %.
While Banjo can edgeguard with fair (which is surprisingly safe on shield compared to his other aerials), he gets more out of ledgetrapping with his projectiles which can also gimp. With a lingering grenade, time your ledge getup; not too early or too late. If he does a fullhop grenade, can getup and shield it, then attack from below if quick enough. If you're both on stage and he does a fullhop grenade, can fullhop nair/fair or shorthop uair his blindspot.
When Kazooie uses eggs to camp you out, make a plan of approach if Banjo's in the lead, whether in the air or from the ground. Eggs don't do much damage on their own, so remain calm while shielding or timing your approach, but still space well with your attacks. Flickshot Plasma may work to counter-camp if you have enough space, but remember he has Wonderwing to get through your wall. If you're horizontally aligned with Banjo while he's in Breegull Blaster mode, it can be possible to skewer him.
While is likely to beat our dair, Banjo’s uair is the weakest of his aerials, making it easier to land from above, especially on platform stages. If you have the opportunity to recover this way, do so to avoid his ledgetrapping. Nair can be better for dealing with his uair than dair though still, with the hitbox starting below and coming out a little faster.
Exploit his recovery. His up B is like a mix of Charizard and Sonic's; can triple jump, use a spring, and uses side B to recover. Going off the edge may be risky if he recovers high with side B, so can wait to Plasma camp him or catch his landing, and if he’s at a lower altitude when using side B to recover, can catch him with SPR if timed right. If he uses up B on stage, try to anti-air him up high or wait to catch his landing. When he recovers low, he's more vulnerable to aerials, spikes, or gimps.
Other things: When Banjo uses the breegull blaster, hold shield. You'll eventually notice they either shoot which you can punish, or they'll start to run to you to do something else.
From further away it doesn't send you locked in a long hitstun, so some distances make them think they can get in for free, but you’re actually ready to punish. Stay actionable if you can, to not get hit by Wonderwing.
If they do nair combos, if you can SDI behind. If on platform, try to SDI to fall off plat. If they bury you, sometimes not mashing will help you not get hit by u-tilt.
Neutral: Nairs and other aerials beat eggs in the air, while extending the frames it’s active, but also makes it more punishable. You want to slowly get in, while making them afraid of your burst range, so be sure they will probably start with grenading you.
p.s. At 70+%, Banjo can do grenade > wonderwing as a kill confirm, so be more wary of grenades at that point.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Banjo’s dair hits us under a platform that he lands on with it, so be ready to shield underneath.
Our uair comes out four frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Banjo multihits- u-smash (8 hits), nair (8 hits)
Banjo up smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher, d-tilt, smashes, landing dair, and ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash, d-smash, or shorthop skewer OoS.
Besides fair which was mentioned as a safe on shield aerial, all his other landing aerials we can punish with our OoS aerials or shield grab for the most part, including u-smash OoS if he's still above you. A singular egg from Banjo's neutral B is negative enough on shield for you to forward nair OoS as an approach if that's what it takes to get to him. His grenade eggs are similarly less safe on shield; during point-blank that is. They have to be out of our burst range for their projectiles to be + on shield.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (90-93%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (94-104%)
Overall, shield plenty in this matchup, walk and dash shielding included.
Opponent's Overview | Advanced Stats |
Inverse Matchup
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Losing
Gameplan
While in the air, Bayonetta can:
- Do two Witch Twist
- Can jump after each Witch Twist unless a double jump is used prior.
- Can jump cancel Witch Twist to increase distance and keep the double jump (and then use it after the last Witch Twist).
- Do one After Burner Kick
- Can do another After Burner Kick for a limited time after landing the first one.
- Cannot do another After Burner Kick after hitting your shield.
If Bayonetta is hit while in the air, she regains one After Burner Kick and one Witch Twist. If Bayonetta activates bats within from an attack, it doesn't count as her being hit. Meaning that she cannot regain resources already used.
During Heel Slide, Bayonetta has to hold down the special button to get the second hit. If Bayonetta holds down an attack she will use her guns to attack. This will happen before Heel Slide's second hit. Use this to your advantage and either respect or punish the attack. Though do be wary the Bayonetta can still hold down the special button to get guns then release before the second hit comes out.
- Shielding the attack during the slide will make it impossible for the Bayonetta to get the second hit.
Ridley can crouch to avoid attacks from Bayonetta or abuse crouch canceling to escape combos with SDI. If Ridley crouches around ledge roll distance, and if a Bayonetta does ledge drop into After Burner Kick, the attack will whiff. Ridley then can react and punish with an up tilt combo or an up smash kill. Ridley can also use crouching to dodge her back aerial completely or her Bullet Climax from afar.
Up Tilt is a two-parter move, meaning even if the first hit attacks shield, the second hit can still connect. If the first hit connects on its first active frame it is -19 on shield with 3 frames of shieldstun. The second hit is on frame 13, meaning that there is 3 frames that you can act. Find out how Ridley can punish Bayonetta up tilt on shield.
From a rising short hop all of Bayonetta's aerials, besides down air, forward air 2 (unless forward air 1 hits shield) and forward air 3, will be over before she lands and will autocancel. Because of this, she can do either a Witch Twist or a After Burner Kick before landing. Unless the Bayonetta uses bullet arts after the aerials, then she will always suffer recovery frames instead.
SDI down and away against most Bayo combos, or up and in if you're diagonally above her. If they start adapting, then randomize your SDI. Can even SDI out out against a Bayo who has you near the blast zone, because she expects you to SDI in. Also, ABK doesn't kill at high % with DI away if you get there.
After you successfully SDI out, you fastfall, and if you see the opportunity to reversal, you take it; punish her recovery frames, but watch out for any sudden ABK downwards, dair, or Witch Time.
Otherwise anticipate Witch Time & Bat Within like usual, just as you would with Mythra Foresight. Like Mythra dash attack, always jump away from or shield & OoS punish Bayo's heel slide, stopping one of her main combo starters in its tracks, though remember it has a 2nd kick at the end.
Her guns you mainly need to watch out for when off stage so you don't get sniped. Either fastfall, recover high if she's charging neutral B, or airdodge.
Her smashes are slow, but watch out for d-smash as a potential 2 frame/spike, it being able to hit us under platforms, and its shield damage.
Her recovery's a bit tricky to take advantage of due to how she often bypasses the ledge, rarely ever ledge grabbing, and can get reversed if too aggressive against her off stage. Better to ledgetrap while hanging back an extra bit so you don't get hit by any of her above-ledge attacks like aerial side B, and punish with a powerful move.
Bayo's back roll low profiles as she does the knee slide, so keep in mind when going for u-tilt; she'll also stay crouched a bit if she does a linger Bullet Arts after her dair, so wait for that to finish before attempting a u-tilt for the u-tilt > uair kill confirm, or sneak in a skewer. Another thing, she leans forward a bit with the rapid jab finisher, so may need to shorthop back a bit with the skewer.
Other than that, Bayo isn't your usual SDI character where there is always “a correct SDI". If they are a good Bayo, you need to be more active and mix things up and try to have an idea of what she wants and deny it, be ready to airdodge if she tries to do incomplete f-air strings (dash walk SDI inputs helps against the complete f-air and some ABK stuff though), and sometimes even purposefully sneak behind her where you can get a reverse edgeguard. There’s also SDI’ing her u-tilt hits which can mess up some of her followups like fair or up B, and if they try to up B you twice, can either SDI up & in and then down & away, or wait till she does double up B on you as you SDI up & in.
Aside from shielding at ledge against Bayo’s that bypass ledge with ABK, there’s crouching > punishing her landing, though keep in mind she can still bair you. Also when edgeguarding, plasma beats ABK, but her up B goes through every fireball.
If you’re at high %, respect ABK more because of kill confirm setups (shield or crouch under it, gun, and fair), and keep Witch Time in mind too.
Advantage
At 0%, d-throw > fair isn't true, but d-throw > up angle f-tilt will always be. If d-throw is unstaled, pummeling before throwing will make the fair true. With max staling, d-throw will always combo into fair if the Bayonetta is at 7% minimum. D-tilt > skewer at 0 to early % can be a nice mixup for those that want to airdodge for bat within.
For edgeguarding them, if they have a jump then they have 2 up B's to spend. If they end up right below ledge, there's not much you can do without being risky but if they're diagonal and below when they do the 1st up B, then you can fullhop and fair them as they're doing jump > 2nd up B to position themselves for the ABK to ledge. Fair in general disrupts their recovery well if you hit her between the gaps, and then you can plasma for more damage.
Disadvantage
Bayonetta can two frame Ridley with:
- Down smash (only Madama's attack)
- A few move's bullet art attacks
- Note that bullet art hitboxes can NOT go through collisions like walls or floors.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Bayo's Heel Slide, ABK, and Witch Twist require about 2 SDI inputs. Heel Slide has 8 to 10 hitlag frames, ABK has 12 to 13 hitlag frames, and Witch Twist has 3 to 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Bayo's f-tilt and f-air have up to three hits like Sora's.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Bayo can't do the followup kick from heel slide if the 1st hit is on your shield, making it -25/-26 by default.
Our uair comes out six frames faster than her dair, so it's possible to uair her as she's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash, shorthop skewer, or wing blitz forward punishable with shield pushback), but remember to shield all three hits of her f-tilt. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset; that said, can catch her landing from up B usage if you act quick enough.
The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33).
- Although Ultimate Frame Data says her up B is +0 on shield, it doesn't account for the other parts of the move whiffing on the way up which makes it closer from -13 to -17 depending on character height. Ridley can do u-smash and uair OoS against it.
Gentlemen jab/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 2/3, smashes, dair, point-blank neutral B, side B (heel slide), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished should she be at kill confirm %. If she whiffs a down B counter nearby, skewer punish.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-84%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (85-90%)
Major credit to smub, Sapphire, and Zant on the SDI details & some of the neutral stuff, and to Paco on our advantage state.
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Inverse Matchup
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Winning
Our running speed's a bit faster than Bowser's. Best to try to understand how he tries to use his speed against you.
Don't shield fire breath but punish from the air (even SPR works), or shorthop back plasma if you have space. Watch if he B-reverses, and don't ledge getup attack if he uses it to ledgetrap from mid range.
His fair in general and sliding up B OoS speak for themselves. Watch out for the shockwave of his dair though, and aside from what's obvious about down B, watch out for it on the ground, as he can headbutt you into it and slam you.
DI down & away from his side B grab, and remember it when he lands diagonally rather than sit in shield.
Aside from fair, his nair is the other main aerial to watch out for in neutral. Doing a fullhop landing with nair leads into combos & confirms (is -12 on shield). He also has a strong grab game like u-throw > nair (at mid/high %, our u-throw is also good due to his lack of reliable landing options), and f/b-throw that kill. Respect his grab range too.
Aside from fair edgeguarding, his down angle f-tilt can hit our ledge hang but doesn't 2 frame. We 2 frame him & ledgetrap him well though, but respect his ledge getup attack range.
With his tough guy, avoid using rapid jab on him when he's grounded like with Kazuya. Then there's the damage based armor of his tilts & smashes, the intangibility of his jab 1/2, tilts, uair, dair, and i-frames of his f-smash & u-smash.
Our tipper f-tilt and such can still beat out the damage based armor of his f-smash and so on, but have to be properly spaced.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His dair and down B hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there.
His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits.
With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource.
His dash attack, f-smash, d-smash, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Our uair comes out six frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. The air version of his down B takes 31 frames to come out.
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
His normals besides jab 2 are punished by our OoS aerials, etc. Only his landing fair is too safe out of aerials. His u-tilt, d-tilt, DA (-33), f-smash (-32), d-smash 2 (-34), dair (-30), up B (-36), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished.
Shorthop skewer OoS can work against Bowser f-smash despite it only being -32 due to the amount of end lag. Also, shield drop > d-smash works against his up B.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (111-114%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (115-123%)
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Inverse Matchup
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Losing
Disadvantage
The tools Ridley often uses to get out of disadvantage are airdodge, fastfall nair, fastfall alone, or using handy double jumps. Some others are fastfall bair and fair, but bair is not recommended due to Jr's disjointed aerials.
Dair can maybe work to get down to ledge but only as a mixup. Jr's Mario esque uair but disjointed is a really oppressive tool that will safely get us to 60% if not higher, so in this matchup getting juggled is the worst, while off stage disadvantage is a bit more bearable.
For off stage, would suggest either recovering low or high if there's enough space between Ridley and Jr. Otherwise he can just bop us with bair, fair, cannonball, or mechakoopa. Recovering straight is pretty iffy considering mechakoopa can stop SPR or WB forward, and of course cannon to deal with. Ridley can use fair and nair to try to protect his recovery attempts, uair for sharking and protecting himself low.
SPR for getting to ledge faster and may cheese a stock, but Jr shouldn't be close to ledge because of mechakoopa as a ledgeguard, and his fair and bair. We can also hold down while using WB up to poke through the stage.
Now to ledge, Ridley's main tool is just waiting for an option from the opponent since our ledge hang is pretty nice. Other options involve ledge drop nair, fair, and SPR or maybe Skewer if you're spicy enough, and ledge jump nair. Those are Ridley specific and our shark with uair and WB up but sharking is pretty niche especially considering mechakoopa.
The other options are what you expect but Ridley's ledge roll is quite bad, so be wary. Another note is be sure to tech Jr's fair, bair, and abandon ship when recovering low and watch out for when they up B (using the hammer after abandon ship) as a ledgetrap, and watch out for mechakoopa.
Advantage
Will mostly use d-tilt and then read what Jr does after, or just fair or nair after the d-tilt. We can also somewhat start advantage by d-throw which leads to many things; fair, f-tilt, dash cancel u-tilt, and bair. I wouldn't try to go for d-throw nair regrabs in this matchup personally, but at mid %, d-throw nair still works.
Jr will mix up their disadvantage with mechakoopa, kart dash, or some aerials. Mechakoopa is like a moving Snake grenade, and Jr can break our advantage by holding it and get us hit and then get something off of that, so be wary with it.
We also still have good anti-airs, like u-tilt which catches some jump-ins and aggressive out of juggle options like Jr dair or nair. With d-tilt we can also still read Jr or follow him from the one u-tilt into maybe another u-tilt at low %, or uair, nair, or fair depending on position.
We can also go somewhat air-to-air with fair, but it's laggy, so watch out. Of course we can get into advantage with nair mainly off of tech chases at mid % or reverse nair into dash attack, f-tilt, or bair.
The main option to get into advantage is pushing Jr off stage with plasma. Would preferably stay at plasma distance so that you can SPR getup attack or neutral getup. Catch a run in with u-smash, bair, or fair. U-tilt for ledge jump, angled f-tilt for Jr's hanging, and u-smash OoS for roll. Shielding is pretty good too if you fear post-up B hammer or kart dash, but these are nifty to punish, so just stay at plasma range.
If you try to edgeguard Jr off stage, gotta be ready to tech; mainly because of kart dash and Jr up B. We can yoink Jr out of kart dash with SPR and get a punish off of jump release, namely with fair, nair, and dair for position coverage.
Our nair has good coverage off stage that can force techs but doesn't have the best kill power. Fair has more power and range forward, but recovering low seems good for Jr, especially with side B & the up B explosion. Our bair is even more powerful and has great range but lacks any disjoints fair has but also forces techs (same as fair btw if Jr gets cought out of his up B by Ridley).
Fullhop dair can get low recovery attempts, but be wary of Jr up B explosion and side B hitbox. Timing is everything and keep teching in mind for both sides. Can spike Jr out of his getup attack with down angle WB and a well timed dair.
Don't forget if Jr has mechakoopa, he can threaten our advantage from a safe distance. It explodes later if Jr has it than if we have it, making somewhat hazardous interactions or combo potential if you know how to abuse it.
Jr can use fully charged cannon to combat us using plasma to ledgeguard, but it's quite slow and the timing is specific on stages and normal cannonball gets beaten by plasma.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Clown Kart Dash has around 9% worth of armor when moving, until Jr jumps. Our main moves that beat it are f-tilt (sour or tipper), tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair), bair, and of course Wing Blitz to kill with if he's at high %. Can dash shield against it as a mixup.
If you find yourself getting hit by the exploding kart of Jr up B a lot on stage, then you're dropping shield too soon to try punishing his landing. Need to hold shield until it explodes or move away before it does (even if under a platform), and then watch out for his powerful hammer after. Sometimes he uses the hammer to catch you sleeping at ledge as he recovers, so be ready to shield or avoid it. If you’re nearby off stage and he uses up B near the ledge, don’t try and catch his landing with a landing aerial and instead go back to ledge or back away enough from the explosion.
In neutral, you can stop mechakoopa in its tracks by hitting with a ranged attack (i.e. retreating nair) or shielding, the latter of which allows you to pick it up and throw at Jr. Don't be too obvious with shielding though or he'll grab you.
Aside from being able to angle it, Jr's f-smash is hard to punish OoS, so may be best to back up instead, unless spaced enough where you can do a d-tilt. Same goes for his dair, so if you shield, make sure you wait till the end of the move.
Jr has weak OoS options, nair being probably his best. Jr's throws have been buffed to kill around 150% at ledge, but his grab is exceptionally slow (tho good range), making it not a good OoS option. Do tech his drill d-throw though.
Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits)
His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly.
A simple attack off ledge can stop Jr up B recovery since it doesn't have a hitbox at first, and if you hit him after he abandons ship, he can use his up B again only for a few seconds, so he's vulnerable to getting gimped.
Jr's d-tilt is a good shield poker like ours and a good get-off-me, so respect it. Is punished by our nair OoS like his other normals though. Also, his jab 2/rapid jab finisher, u-tilt, u-smash (-26), d-smash (-32), and ledge GUA are punished by our own u-tilt when shielded should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Jr rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Besides maybe nair OoS on his fair and dair, his other landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset. Jr neutral B is OoS aerial/grab punishable when shielded up close, and kart dash spinout is very minus on shield which can be punished with f-smash, etc.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (89-94%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (95-104%)
p.s. Partial credit goes to the Ridcord JMU section for some of this info.
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Even
If Byleth misses with their down B, we pretty much get a free skewer. There's also grab and distanced plasma. Aymr has 30% worth of armor, but a sweetspoted skewer will still get them before it comes out. Also note Aymr hits us under platforms, so still avoid if under Byleth.
Other than that, respect Byleth's reach. Their f-smash can be angled up or down too and has a most deadly sweetspot. The range also applies to their side B (can be spot dodge punished, though also respect it in the air), fair, and bair. With their slow mobility, they play a defensive playstyle like us with trying to bait you in and punishing. Simply have to outplay them in that regard. That said, when you're up close when the sour spot of their attacks hit instead of the tipper, they do a lot less damage and knockback.
For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary.
Byleth can also use their up B as you're up high. Try to airdodge or DI away after the initial hit to avoid a followup. Their neutral B arrow is good at sniping off stage but thankfully, it only shoots at two different points of the animation when it glows yellow or blue, but still something to watch out for, though we can use plasma against them more easily than they can spam that.
Can also use plasma to gimp them off stage before they get their tether recovery out, try an off stage or CLS (crouch ledge slip) aerial before they pull up (though don't get up B grabbed), or if they're slightly above ledge when they begin to tether to it off stage, can do a quick SPR and drag them all the way down, followed by a jump release. They have a tough time landing against us too like we do against them. Other than that, focus more on corner pressure than trying to ledgetrap them. The risk/reward isn't there to engage with their side B and other ledge stalls like fair.
When being edgeguarded, their dair can dunk us, so delay a bit when recovering low; might also be possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair you, since our uair comes out faster frame wise, but trading is not in our favor here. When recovering mid, watch out for their fair & bair tipper, nair potentially gimping, and of course their up B if you try to recover high. Mix it up. When on ledge, some moves like their f-smash can't hit us, but their d-smash can (just getup attack versus that), so keep in mind when planking. Is still risky to plank against non-shoto characters though, so just use the fact that Byleth's gotta space their moves more precisely to hit you, so that you can get off ledge.
If you do an SPR release for an aerial followup, beware of their side B as a get-off-me move, and up B grapple which will spike you. If you catch them with an SPR during a tech chase or something, may be better to just let it drag them off.
Another thing about their nair, if you get shield poked during the beginning of the move, would recommend tilting shield upward and if they try to poke shield with the landing hitbox, angling it down should work.
While shielding is generally good against Byleth up close, remember their d-smash and dair. Has 19/29 and 22 frame startups and are f43 and f35 in end lag, so jump OoS (followed by a landing aerial or special whiff punish) or roll away if expecting them.
If Byleth goes for an up throw to start juggling you, double jump the other way to shift your hurtbox and get out. You jump higher as Ridley if you double jump the opposing way.
Likewise, when grabbed by their up B while in the air, remember to tech right as it slams you to the ground so you don't get knocked back upward.
Other than that, is usually better to not approach because of their range. If they want to camp you, just use plasma. If they try to bow you, unless they do it way earlier than you, 2 fireballs beats it unless you get bad RNG. One trades and the other gets through.
And if they want approach you while you plasma, they will have to jump. They are very slow, so you put them in a pretty bad position as I’ve learned, making your anti-airs more dangerous.
You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash back and turnaround d-tilt also applies.
And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard Byleth because of their bad air speed. It just kind of creates a wall that they can't get through; if you hit them far enough of course.
To avoid getting grabbed by Byleth up B when edgeguarding off stage, remember they have to be outside the range of the ledge if they’re trying to do it. If they’re in range of the ledge, they can’t grab you with it, so if they have no jump left for instance, can bait out their up B by pretending you’ll drop, and then jump back. You can also still go for off stage deep edgeguards against them, but be horizontal to Byleth instead of above.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Their f-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
One other weakness of theirs is poor grab reach, and like us, no kill throws. Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent (shield drop > d-smash also works). Their normals are punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their f-smash is also shield punished by our own if poorly spaced or SH SPR OoS, and their side B is most punishable on shield, including u-smash OoS if they're in the air. Besides their nair which can be nair OoS punished (unless spaced) and the laggy dair, their landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset.
Their gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable if shielded should they be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (86-89%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (90-101%)
Major credit to Zant on the advantage tips and some of the parts on neutral.
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In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab (33 frames of end lag) to approach. He may jab after you shield an aerial, so wait for that and punish.
His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, though be forward and quick with said option since the move bounces off of shield but has enough end lag), anti-air like up angle f-tilt if they do the aerial version, or step/fullhop back and see if they panic spot dodge or roll back, then see what you can do. If you're at somewhere high % when hit by it and launched higher, can also nair as a get-off-me before he manages to do an aerial followup.
Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage.
With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right.
For Falcon's risk/reward, don't forget that as soon as you get to around 30%, getting grabbed is better than getting hit by an aerial landing. Mid range at mid %, d-tilts are a bad idea because it lets him jump above you. If you're not sure of an interaction, shield except at very high %. Can fullhop nair to counteract his attempted landing aerials, especially when Ridley's cornered near ledge which can be more reliable than f-tilt or d-tilt when cornered.
When recovering off stage, even from a dash attack that sends you off at bit at low %, don't airdodge or swing with nair too early or he'll get you with something like dair.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs.
Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms, so still shield it there.
Falcon's nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, both of which have 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
His f-smash, neutral B, and down B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to him, with shorthop skewer OoS usually being more consistent (shield drop > d-smash also works). His normals besides u-smash and maybe d-smash are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His landing aerials besides fair are too safe on shield though, so go for a neutral reset there. His grounded side B is punished by nair OoS and shield grab, while Falcon Kick (grounded) is shield punishable with f/d-smash even on crossup, and shorthop turnaround skewer OoS if properly spaced. Gotta be frame perfect though due to its 35 frames of end lag, and if Falcon Kick doesn't crossup, just f/d-smash. Also, his f-smash & aerial falcon kick are punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, f-smash, Falcon Kick (both aerial and grounded), and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (91-95%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%)
Credit to Mezcaul on dealing with neutral when at % mid range, and what to do when cornered and recovering. Also, external link on how to DI Falcon's combos: https://x.com/goatsposts/status/1467211350371880965
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Slightly Winning
Like Lucina, Chrom doesn't care as much about spacing as Roy or Marth. Chrom also has Ike's up B, but something Chrom has in common with Roy as an echo fighter is tending to rushdown his opponents more than Marth/Lucina, so we have to wall them out even more.
Roy/Chrom's 4 hit side B near ledge causes some of the earliest KO's, so watch out there the most. Avoid or shield, don't spot dodge. If they stop at a hit before 4, do a quick OoS attack or move away. Also watch how they use side B from ledge or landing.
Roy/Chrom have one of the best jabs, due to being a great combo starter in part. Jab > d-tilt and so on, so keep your distance. Another reason to do so is their up B being a good OoS option.
Watch how they charge their neutral B when edgeguarding and delay your recovery accordingly, or do a beefy up B. Watch for their counters too, and tech & hold down when hit by one.
Aside from walling them out with tilts and such, plasma can also be a good mixup for it.
When edgeguarding, Chrom's up B has no horizontal movement, so can easily hit him from above when he's at the highest point of his move, or 2-frame.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Dash attack will beat Chrom's shorthop if spaced.
When watching how he uses side B in neutral or disadvantage, stay spaced whether shielding or not. Unless confident you'll land a shorthop back skewer, going in too soon for a whiff punish before he does all 4 hits will get you punished instead, and if he whiffs the first two hits at mid range, shield the next hits since he slowly inches forward.
Roy/Chrom both have u-smash intangibility and super armor on their up B.
U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2.
The 4th hit of Chrom's side B requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid.
Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary.
His smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Our uair comes out five frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Their normals besides d-tilt and Chrom jab are punished by our OoS aerials and such; smashes are f-smash punished OoS, while Chrom f-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Landing aerials are too safe though, so reset. Charged neutral B is a shield breaker, but the side B hits are pretty unsafe on shield; even d-smash works also from skewer (after the last hit). If he misses a counter nearby, whiff punish.
Their u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, any side B hits, and ledge getup attack attack (-22) are u-tilt punished OoS should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt -> fullhop uair (87-90%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (91-100%)
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Neutral
Cloud relies on the use of falling aerials, empty hops, and movement to condition responses. He'll use his safe bair and fair to space and whiff punish while peppering in dash attacks or Side B's to catch jumps or calling out bluffs. Cloud’s mobility is overall better than Ridley; he’s just barely slower on the ground and is much faster in the air. He will outpace Ridley with Limit which can make Cloud hard to pin down.
Cloud’s will use Limit charge as a way to force approaches; you don’t want to fully take this bait and rush in to get punished or give up the stage. When Cloud gains Limit, he’s put on a 15 second timer to use it or lose it which can allow you to predict when he'll use it or even wait it out. The higher your %, the more you should be careful with Cloud’s Limit since it’s much scarier when it can kill you.
Cloud’s bair is extremely safe, at a minimum of -3 on shield. You should never expect to directly punish a falling bair OoS even if it is badly spaced; it can even be unpunishable on parry if Cloud spaced it outside of jab or grab range. Treat it like other safe moves, watch what they do after and punish that.
Cloud’s fair is respectably safe at -6/-7 (depending on sweet or sourspot) but is much more difficult to time safely since it starts high, allowing Ridley to punish with nair OoS if Cloud mistimes it. Cloud’s fair and bair will also be his main combo starters, leading to big damage with cross slash usually. They will stop working around 70%.
Cloud can use d-tilt or f-tilt as a mixup after landing aerials on or away from your shield to close gaps or catch you moving in. D-tilt is especially potent since it can crossup and moves faster than you’d expect, but it can be punished OoS easily enough.
Cross slash will be Coud’s most damage whiff punisher, as it’s huge and has mixups on shield. Cloud can stop after the 1st or 2nd hit if you block. While this isn’t technically safe, continuing the combo is, so it’s a pseudo mixup depending on how quickly you can react. Cloud is forced to finish the swings when activating hit 3. It's pretty punishable OoS (-24), so you can get a sizable punish.
Cloud’s dash attack is a relatively fast move that lets him call out jumps and catch landings. It hits fairly high and is active for a long time. It doesn’t kill super well but it gives Cloud good positioning on hit and is important to discourage jumps and whiffs. It's pretty punishable OoS however.
Cloud’s OoS game lives by his up B which is frame 7 and huge. Treat it similar to Game & Watch where you avoid landing on top of his shield or mis-spacing moves at all costs.
Blade beam is Cloud’s projectile, a big moving hitbox that acts as a slow wall in the air, or a fastish spacer. The FAF (first actionable frame) isn’t good, so Cloud often can’t follow it. They will generally have to bait with B-reverses or catch you using plasma too close. If they're trying to zone you with it, plasma will work as a counter as long as you keep your distance.
While Cloud's aerials are extremely safe on block and do decent shield damage, his grab is so bad and unrewarding that blocking becomes very powerful in a lot of situations, especially if you can parry. Just pay attention and watch for habits or punishable moves like dash attack or the sliding d-tilt.
Ridley’s goal is to stay patient and bait whiffs and punish overaggression. The potential reward for Ridley winning neutral is higher than Cloud’s, so you can afford to wait him out and go for more callouts. Ridley’s d-tilt is the only move to reliably outrange Cloud, so you'll want to stay around that range or further. It’s important that you always stay close enough that charging Limit isn’t free, where well placed plasma or a short dash/walk will make Cloud respond.
Ridley will want to stay mostly grounded and abuse his speed and d-tilt + plasma to keep Cloud jumping for whiff punishes on his bair/fair. Plasma is great for getting Cloud off the ground, just be aware of his amazing airspeed (and if he has Limit) since he can jump over it and fair/bair you if you do it too close.
Cloud’s aerials may be extremely safe but they have some startup. 18 and 11 for fair and bair respectively, followed by 28 frames of end lag for fair and 30 for bair. This combined with needing to be done landing will give you two important advantages, the ability to predict for parries, or challenging them before their move can come out. Parry > d-tilt or f-tilt is a strong option since even if it doesn’t true punish, it will still act as a safe poke and should stuff most buttons.
- Our fair stuffs his bair
Whiff punishing Cloud’s landing aerials will condition him to use more empty hops as a bait for you to whiff. By double jumping before he touches the ground or drifting back, he can setup some nasty situations if you get antsy. This is when you can start to call out jumps with nair, fair or even u-tilt if they're fullhopping. Cloud can beat it with rising aerials but these are much riskier. F-tilt angled up can see some use as an anti air, but the angle Cloud attacks from is generally hard for f-tilt to cover while also being easier to whiff punish. It still works great as a ground spacer though.
Cloud’s nair is small but potent when it lands, can lead to extensions, but is generally less safe than his other aerials. It's also the only aerial Cloud generally will use when rising. Cloud can also use landing uair like it’s Smash 4 against us. -5 and hits pretty well, can lead into itself or u-tilt and is an ambiguous cross up. Tilting your shield upward when Cloud is jumping can make Cloud hit you slightly higher make his move just a little less safe, any extra advantage helps.
Crouching can also make Cloud’s landing aerial timing stricter, removing timing mixup potential and makes it safer on block but makes parry easier.
When Cloud has Limit it’s important to not get flustered. He has stat boosts across the board, so his mixup potential is greatly increased. This can be hard to deal with especially when you consider he now has invincible specials. It's held back by one important factor, a 15 second time limit; this time limit puts the Cloud on the offensive if he wants to use his limit, making him more predictable. Cloud will be looking for a setup, either from an aerial (like nair at high % or bair/fair at low %) or getting you off stage. Waiting out the timer is perfectly viable; using jumps and run speed to keep Cloud chasing you can help you waste time. This combined with smart shielding and air-to-air's can pressure Cloud to YOLO his limit instead of risking its loss.
Bair to limit cross slash (LCS) is a scary shield break setup that’s hard to escape. You can beat this completely by parrying the last hit of it; timing isn’t too hard and is always the same. Also, limit blade beam goes through plasma.
Disadvantage
Get ready for lots of uair and bair. Cloud can string bair's or reverse nair's into limit cross slash off stage for super early kills if you don’t respond. Airdodge can usually save you, but take note of your position for if Cloud can still catch you and not die.
While on ledge, Cloud will typically bair spam. His bair is a really strong ledgetrap tool, as its size allows it to cover neutral getup, ledge getup attack, and ledge roll while landing and is fast enough to let him pressure or punish ledge jumps on reaction followed by dash attack to hit you for hanging too long. Mixing up timings is very important here. Cloud can only hit Ridley on ledge with limit blade beam or dash attack, so you can sometimes afford to wait. Getup attack is almost always a bad idea, as Cloud is rarely ever grounded long enough for it to punish anything and is slower than neutral getup. Some exceptions can be if he's using Limit or missed a dash attack. Jump is important since it’s the only option that isn’t always directly covered in Cloud’s funny bair spams; mixing neutral getup and ledge jump with drop down options with rolls every so often can at least keep Cloud guessing.
Although Cloud can’t hit you on ledge with normals super well, planking isn’t a good idea since his dair and Limit moves will kill you. When Cloud has Limit, you have to be much more careful since as you’d expect, Limit blade beam will hit you on ledge free and cross slash will eat jumps & neutral getups for breakfast if he reads your timing.
Disadvantage off stage is a mixed bag. Cloud has the tools to beat Wing Blitz, but is thankfully limited by his fall speed and bad recovery. Horizontal recoveries should be mostly avoided unless you’re mixing up. Blade beam can interrupt SPR or WB fairly easily and fair/dair can spike you for it. Recovering low is normally what you’ll want to do, but will still have to worry about dair. It’s big enough to beat WB clean, so you’ll have to be sure you pay attention to Cloud’s position and mixup your timing. When Cloud has Limit it gets a lot trickier, as LCS is an active hitbox that keeps Cloud in place, allowing him to easily beat WB from the side. When Cloud has Limit is when you’ll want to pull out the positional mixups; even recovering slightly wider than usual can throw Cloud's off if they don’t react and swap their attacking direction.
When being juggled, mostly have to deal with uair. Ridley is big and Cloud is fast and has great juggle moves, so be smart with your jumps and don’t airdodge directly onto Cloud. Cloud has an aerial blind spot on his diagonals, which can let you use counter attacks like nair or fair if you can use them in this position. You will get uair'd on average, but don’t panic and mash jump when getting uair chained, as the last thing you want to happen is losing your jumps. Cloud’s up smash is fast and hits really high above him, so be careful when trying to space landings around him or when jumping over him. When Cloud has Limit it’s even more important to not land on top of him, as his Limit OoS options are very strong and huge.
Advantage
Ledgetrapping here is fairly typical. Cloud’s ledge hang is almost as good as Ridley’s, so hitting him can be a little tricky, especially with plasma. His ledge attack is tied in range with Ridley, so it reaches pretty far. Cloud’s ledge drop options are pretty risky since it means he has to use a double jump. He can bair, nair, or fair. He can lalso edge jump up B to hit you if you're standing too close or whiffing.
Cloud off stage is where it gets fun. He should theoretically always die from there. Cloud has four very important resources while recovering; his double jump, airdodge, side B, and neutral B. You should always be watching for his double jump, as a Cloud without it is dead. Airdodge can give Cloud some extra distance when sent far away, or help him get to ledge. His specials will stall him in the air and give him a bit of horizontal movement, which can throw off timings and allow him to recover. Each special can only stall him once though, so keep an eye out. Blade beam can be used to swat you away for charging plasma too early or close or trying to run off, but correctly spaced plasma should be able to deal with this if you're ready for it.
Plasma can often do the job of gimping Cloud pretty well, but you’ll still have to go out there and threaten him to avoid him getting comfortable. Nair is great for this, especially if you catch his jump. Plasma can also occasionally lose to Climbhazzard. Cloud’s up B has trouble snapping to the ledge, only snapping when spaced low or super close to it. When you’ve got a hang of the spacing you can abuse it by hitting him with plasma, f-tilt, or even d-tilt which can be especially effective when in combo range for fair and is the faster and more active than f-tilt. Fair is great for challenging Cloud’s attempts to jump back onto the stage, since it’s fast and with the multi-hit you should beat whatever attack he chooses in most circumstances.
Watch out for Cloud's recovering high with the downward swing of up B. Treat it like a disjointed Wing Blitz down angle. Cloud’s up b may be scary to mess with since he can take you down with him. The risk is very worth it however, especially since if Cloud misses. Cloud is also fairly susceptible to fullhop dair on the right stages (any legal stage barring Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Story, Lylat, and Kalos), as his linear vertical recovery is perfect for getting walled out by dair. Just be aware of the giant spiking disjoint in front of him.
When Cloud has Limit, your focus should be on making him use it, whether it be as a counter attack or in his up B. This will be the time Cloud's are most likely to want to jump back since they want to keep Limit, so block their jump/airdodge. The hitbox on Limit up B ends well before Cloud stops rising, making it easier to challenge than you may think.
With juggling in advantage, Cloud has a good airspeed, fallspeed (especially with Limit), and fairly good landing aerials, so stay grounded and chase him. Our d-tilt will still whiff punish his bair/fair. Cloud’s dair is a huge disjoint; it can aid him in landing if you're trying to attack Cloud directly. It has mediocre landing lag but can be spaced to autocancel. Up smash will beat it pretty well, or you can just challenge it from the side with anything (even pivot grab), so you should be looking to bait it.
Always look for Cloud’s airdodge, or any landing habits for that matter. When you get a read if you can’t kill him outright, you want to prioritize putting him off the stage with horizontal moves like nair or f-tilt. Keep an eye out for up B advantage breakers; since the move is big and fast, Cloud's can use it as a mixup to catch you charging at them. Remember to watch for double jumps when going for reads, as getting Cloud off the stage without his jump is a free stock.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Respect his ledge getup attack range.
His dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid.
Cloud's up B can be DI'd out of; if you hold out, the downward hitbox will send you out instead of down.
His side B is generally 5 hits, with or without limit.
We can crouch under shorthop blade beam.
His f-smash and finishing touch are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Cloud fair can spike aerial opponents at the clean hit's sweetspot located at the end of the sword arc, but since it's 18 frames of startup, any of our aerials can come out beforehand.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS.
If you shield his up B, just remember to do so all the way through till he's high in the air and the lands, or spot-dodge it in between.
Other than that, finishing touch is his most negative on shield move of all with how powerful it is, so can punish with whatever, even d-smash.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (89-92%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (93-104%)
Huge credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info. Also, external link on how to DI Cloud's dash attack- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNO4mPQLsBg
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Slightly Losing
First off, respect Corrin's juggling. Their aerials (especially uair and bair which they may telegraph) are fast, long, and disjointed, making it hard to move around them in the air. Either time an airdodge, or play it safe and fastfall off to the side toward the ledge. They may have a jump based neutral to take advantage of their juggling, which you can punish by staying grounded and anti-air or catch their landings. Also crouching + retreating turnaround d-tilt if needed.
Corrin's f-smash is one of the longest in the game, just behind Min-Min and the Belmonts. They can angle it up and down too, though they have to be precisely spaced to hit us on ledge with it. What makes their f-smash unique is they can damage you while charging it, so if you're not careful, can trap you into getting hard smashed off the stage. That said, you can SDI up out of it and airdodge behind them. Also, don't attack them when charging it unless with a long disjointed move or plasma.
With their neutral B, just remember it's a chargeable shot that stuns when it hits, and has those jaws waiting to chomp on you if you jump over the projectile. So if you jump over the shot, either stay away from Corrin or jump high. It doesn't do much shield damage though, and the shot can be clanked out by our moves even when fully charged.
The side B dragon lunge can be mixed up in plenty ways. Can 2 frame off the ledge with the initial spike (delay your jump/recovery accordingly), can spike into the ground and either kick forward, back, cancel pin and land on the ground, or jump from the pin (invulnerable on frames 2-7). Can shield punish the kicks easily, but if they see what you're doing, they may cancel the move and run up and grab you, so be ready to use an OoS option or move away. Jump is another option.
Also remember they have a counter because Fire Emblem. It sends vertically instead of horizontally, so DI left/right; can anticipate them to use it to stop you from juggling. Same with their dair. Pause your combo, wait for them to do either move, and punish. If you go off to edgeguard them, be ready to tech.
For weaknesses, low mobility. Also a poor disadvantage & exploitable recovery like us, weak grab game, and struggles against projectiles, so plasma can be good against them if used right.
If you’re in the air, you have to accept getting hit a couple of times if needed because losing your jumps and being stuck without them while they’re under you = gimped.
Try to make your ledge grabs as ambiguous as possible (aka mixup recovering low and horizontal to ledge, mixup which move you use) to try and avoid getting hit with pin. Respect pin on stage as well.
Gameplan is to try and bait them into whiffing and then getting stray punishes. If they aren’t approaching you, you can incentivize them with a couple of plasma but don’t get reckless and charge it while they’re too close.
You can outspace their nair/fair with f-tilt, so definitely stay grounded, but you have to be ready for pin.
Also while at ledge, Corrin's f-smash does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance; allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge. On the flipside, is easier to ledgetrap Corrin than edgeguard them.
Disadvantage
- Ridley can use a beefy up special to clank with Dragon Lunge's pinned attack two frames and grab ledge unharmed.
- While at ledge, Corrin's forward smash does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance, allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge.
Corrin pin
To sum it up, the Corrin pin tech chase setup is fake. The pin does put you into tumble, but you're actionable before landing, so you get two strong options with little risk that punishes them for being greedy for not taking the kick followup.
You can hold buffer an aerial that autocancels or has low end lag (our nair) that gives frame advantage and punishes on the pin drop release as well as their pin jump cancel.
With holding buffered aerials, during any action, you can hold buffer an input basically indefinitely. Pressing and holding A during Corrin's pin will automatically aerial as soon as you are actionable. Thus, you can press and hold A with the stick in neutral to buffer a nair, then have free control of the stick later while still guaranteeing a buffered nair.
This option select covers pin release while giving you the ability to use the left stick to survival DI the kick. This hold buffer trick also works with buffering specials, but that'll be a rare mixup in our case.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Their up B is invulnerable on frames 7-17, stopping just before the move becomes active on frame 18. Once they start moving, you can hit them with anything including dair.
Their dash attack can crossup our shield, though not by much, but be ready to do a turnaround punish just in case.
Their dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. Same goes for their side B pin when under a plat.
Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead.
Corrin f-smash (charged) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Their smashes are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Our uair comes out a frame faster than their dair, so it's possible to uair them as they're getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Their rapid jab finisher is shield punished with f-smash. Their normals are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while their gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, neutral B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by our own u-tilt should they be at u-tilt > uair kill %. If they whiff a counter surge nearby, skewer punish. Also, their u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-27) are shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
Their landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. The 2nd part of their neutral B is fairly shield punishable (-31 to -19), and the dragon lunch pin kick is -35 on shield, while the back kick is -48, making it plenty punishable with whatever. Remember though they may cancel the pin and go for a grab if they see you shielding early, so use an OoS attack early if they cancel and approach, or move away.
- Corrin's neutral air hits from the side then going into an arc counterclockwise, covering all directions. Do not challenge this move directly, instead use disjointed tail attacks.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (88-91%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (92-100%)
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Occasionally Z-catch the banana peel when you can (or sometimes when you tilt/aerial or airdodge), though if you're not confident in using it against him, can always throw it off stage or perhaps better yet, throw it to the far side of the stage, keeping it out of play which makes it longer before he can spawn a new one. We have some Skewer setups with it too, that said.
Jumping over is otherwise the best option like when waiting for him to throw it, which you can mix up your jump patterns with your multi jumps to make him guess far as your landing; jumping at the last moment, attacking (landing aerial may also counter a side B attempt), or airdodging on reaction. Usually Diddy's will try to throw the banana as you land, OoS, or to punish a whiff or bad roll.
- Ledgehop (or ledge drop double jump) f-air can be good for grabbing a banana at ledge in the process, but is a mixup only since Diddy can punish on reaction
Likewise jump over his peanut projectile most often, including ledge jump if he tries using it to ledgetrap. When he's landing, watch out for him using peanut as a B-reverse to try and make you whiff. Peanut's also catchable like banana, but there's little point with how weak it is. If you get in the habit of shielding it and likewise with banana, he'll punish with Monkey Flip, so don't let him condition you (dash shielding helps though). Respect and anticipate side B, including when he’s off stage near or at ledge & you’re on stage, as you don’t want to get reversaled. Also anticipate it if he recovers high with a fullhop aerial.
Like us, Diddy can also use his side B to help with his off-stage recovery, and with how much speed and distance it covers, you likely won't get a chance to gimp him with an aerial if he uses that to recover instead of up B. It can catch you quick too when you're on the receiving end trying to recover, and peanut can potentially gimp when used to edgeguard, so recover low when possible in most cases to avoid both of those.
Speaking of up B, you do want to shield Rocket Barrel (which he'll most often use horizontally) even under platforms, if you're not ready to counterattack him. Diddy up B explosions are also punishable with Rid d-smash if he lands close or dash attack if he lands far. Be ready for that if he uses it as a wildcard on stage or from somewhere off stage to land. If you hit him out of his rocket barrels (on or off stage), he can still control it and circle it back to blast into you. Is unlikely but possible, so respect it.
Monkey Flip is mashable, but you’re very rarely gonna outrun it, so most of its punishing happens during the move with some kind of anti-air like retreating nair, u-tilt, up angle f-tilt, or even u-smash at kill %. It may be a good idea to spend less time shielding against Diddy and more time moving around him, with how quick his side B is which’ll punish you if you’re as comfy in your shield as some matchups. When caught by side B, jump release results in a footstool; also be ready to tech it at ~10%.
Another thing about monkey flip, despite how fast it may feel or seem, it still has plenty startup; 18 frames which is only 4 frames less than that of our command grab, so if you can mess up their close range you can just straight up beat the move. Monkey flip is preferred at mid range which is where Ridley typically wants to be at which it makes it hard to play his usual game, so you may have to bait him close range or play lame at far range.
Also focus on gaining space and stage control when he brings out the banana. When Diddy pulls the banana out (and only when he’s actively pulling it out), focus on where the banana is going instead of Diddy, as he’s going to jump to catch it. If you are close enough you can punish it, such as with nair, or try to estimate where he’ll go right after he picks it up.
Watch out for his d-tilt hand clap which is one of his main combo starters like with us, except he can followup with smashes (unless you're at too high % for his u-smash to connect) and has a 20% chance of causing tripping. Otherwise with his aerials that lead into combos, remember to DI away. His f-throw and b-throw can kill around 150% range at the ledge, and his u-throw can combo too. DI for Ridley is not as effective against his Hoo Ha kill confirm (d-throw > bair) though.
Is a niche option, but when Diddy's either holding the banana or has already thrown it, can sometimes use Plasma to trade with him as a situational check. Plasma like other projectiles can stop the thrown banana in its place if timed right, and forces an option out of him even if it doesn't hit him like when the banana's already on the ground, and simply hopping over the peel to reach him will often greet you with his f-air or something.
Platform stages are recommended against Diddy since landing against him can be difficult for the reasons established.
For more specific things on the matchup...
General gameplan
- Stop the Diddy from getting the banana in neutral. Diddy will catch approaches with fair, d-tilt, and side B to limit our approaches and pull the banana easily. Is important to spot the pattern of Diddy pulling the banana to punish him.
- Shield plenty at high %, angle your shield upwards, and then cancel with fullhops to bait a monkey flip.
- Diddy fair is laggy enough to punish with nair or shield grab.
Lose conditions
- Nair > devastating dair at mid %. At the corner, avoid f-tilt or d-tilt to concentrate on the aerial. If touched, DI in the dair.
- If they never do a rising aerial against our shield at high % for an easy up smash punish.
- Try to spotdodge or roll out our side B. Jumping or rolling in is the solution.
- Try to punish his dash attack or side B kick on shield. Take into account the RPS situations.
Facing the banana
- If Diddy banana is in front of us, it's a huge commitment; running in and d-tilt/f-tilt or dash attack to pick it up. Intercepting the banana in the air is not recommended because of our weak air game. Pick up the banana with f-tilt or dash attack, as both have good reach.
- Learn to ledge jump z-catch the banana placed in the corner. If Diddy has banana and shields at the corner while we are off stage, do not ledge jump. If we have no choice, move away from the wall to limit our chances of getting hit by the banana.
- Once the banana is in your hands, either ledgetrap with it, send it to Diddy, or place it on a platform if you can. Unfortunately, keeping it is not good, as we can no longer f-tilt or d-tilt.
- If Diddy has the banana, absolutely space the f-tilt or d-tilt. After these, shield as the first intention. Jumping a lot after is helpful.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits.
Diddy up tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Our uair comes out four frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS and his u-smash is shield punished by our f-smash. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield, so go for a reset there.
Jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt too should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
If he charges his neutral B up close, it’s shield punishable with OoS aerials/grab, while the overcharge is very minus on shield. Horizontal rocket barrel's plenty punishable on shield too, even with d-smash.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-86%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%)
Major credit to Mezcaul on the general gameplan, lose conditions, and specifics in facing the banana.
Banana Skewer combo- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctDSgYtyWs
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Neutral: DK's approaches are a 50/50 between dash attack (-13 on shield and only 10 frames of end lag) & dash grab (33 frames of end lag), along with his bair walling which you want to anti-air.
Disadvantage: Watch out for aerial hand slap hitting ledge hang. Also use ground tech from 2nd hit of that move to avoid a u-smash kill.
Advantage: Watch out for him using fully charged neutral B from ledge. Also, even if they’re facing toward you, good DK players will B-reverse their neutral B charge to let themselves double jump bair through your fireballs. Semi charging at most is good in this instance so you can try and aerial them after, while saving full charge plasma for when they’re recovering from further away.
With DK’s spike options, pay attention to how he moves off stage to determine how you recover, sometimes attacking him in the process. Try to mash out of his cargo throw, but especially watch out for his up throw setups. If you do get carried by his cargo throw off stage, watch out for f-throw where he dunks you with f-air after. To avoid that, delay your jump and recover low. Also watch out for off stage b-throw where he tries to stage spike you, but try to tech that (shield + up). Same if he does bair or nair in this instance.
Other than that, respect the super armor of his neutral B, up B (7 hits on the ground but in the air is inconsistent), and side B, as well as the intangibility of his three tilts, smashes, and uair. Avoid the side B rather than shield it with how much shield damage it does, and watch out for it when juggling him. Wall him out with our neutral tools and combo him when possible. DK knows his recovery is bad, so he’ll often use it early to avoid being spiked. Back up and punish when you anticipate it. A mixup DK may do is ledge drop double jump dair.
Miscellaneous and frame data
While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible (same with his up B during startup). Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage.
For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair.
With them having a frame 4 airdodge as a superheavy, our u-throw > uair can work on them occasionally. Jumping at the right time can still beat this combo, but they still have to use up a valuable resource.
His u-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational. Likewise, his fair is 18 frames in startup, headbutt is 20 frames in startup, and air hand slap is 19/28 frames in startup, so our aerials can hit him beforehand.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Respect his grab range and ledge getup attack range.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
DK's normals are pretty punishable OoS for us with our aerials, grab, u-smash, and such. His d-smash can also be shield punished by f-smash, and his jab 2, f-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by our u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though besides fair, so go for a reset there.
His side B does a lot of shield damage as mentioned, but if you shield it at full health, can punish with most options since it's -32. His grounded down B and especially up B (-37) are punishable OoS too; skewer, d-smash, etc for the latter.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (104-108%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (109-117%)
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- Doc Tornado is 7 hits and -30 on shield, so can be punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. Be aware though it has 10% damage worth of armor. When it by it, have to do about 2 SDI inputs, each hit of which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Up smash has head intangibility on frames 9 to 13.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (88-91%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (92-98%)
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To get in, first and foremost:
Figure out what moves will safely hit the can and then hit the can; our spaced tilts & aerials generally, and maybe plasma depending on distance. The can bounces 9 times before it starts smoking. This forces Duck Hunt to hit the can again themselves to regain control of it. Be fairly sure that they WILL try to hit the can in this case, as most of their neutral revolves around it being available. Once can is inactive, they only have the linear pressure of clay pigeon and gunman, so you can approach more safely with aerials or chance a grounded approach, being ready to shield, preferably dash shield.
If you go in from the air (after can has been neutralized), be wary of
- uair, as it hits three times with a hitbox as wide as Duck Hunt's body
- up smash's first and third hitbox, which hit up-and-in-front and then directly above
- fade back into up angled f-tilt (not disjointed) or up angled f-smash (very disjointed)
Going in from the ground is usually just them spamming the same options they would normally have in neutral. Nothing special since they won't want to do anything too bold like jump into you with an aerial.
Additional stuff:
Keep in mind that clay pigeon has both the object's hitbox plus the shots after; said shots happen in an overlapping pattern that is larger than Duck Hunt themselves. It's better to shield tilt it than try to play tightly around it as the hitstun is generous and they can somewhat spam it at close ranges. Duck Hunt grabs don't lead into much besides can setups and has no kill throws, so this isn't the worst thing to do depending on the situation.
One other big piece of advice is don't push your advantage when you're both grounded because they can hit you with a clay pigeon out of hitstun and suddenly your combo is theirs. Same thing with covering landings; don't try to time a tilt because you might get hit by a clay pigeon. Charge plasma from away or let them land. Either way it's not worth the risk of getting hit by clay pigeon which you're always better off avoiding and then punishing. Duck Hunt's committed to being in the side B animation for 64 frames.
Gunman has a longer cooldown (two or so seconds) if you hit them, so take the odd safe chance to do that if the opponent uses them a lot. They take hitlag the same as any other character or object, so be aware that Duck Hunt can do funky stuff like a retreating jump to drop a gunman which eats the attack while they use the extra frames to act. The fastest gunman is the one in red.
When being ledgetrapped by Duck Hunt, don’t hit the can with ledge getup attack, as he can f-smash it back.
Miscellaneous and frame data
You can’t SDI clay pigeon. Hold shield, DI, and try jumping.
Watch out for dair under plats and shield or avoid.
Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile.
His f-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Our uair comes out three frames faster than his dair, so it's possible to uair him as he's getting into position to dair spike with the right timing, although situational.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case (shield drop > d-smash also works). His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab.
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-28) are u-tilt punishable should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his f-smash you can punish wi