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Ridley Prime (talk | contribs) |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Banjo up smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), his gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher/d-tilt/smashes/landing dair/ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his 8 hit u-smash when shielded is punished by our f/d-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. |
Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), his gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher/d-tilt/smashes/landing dair/ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his 8 hit u-smash when shielded is punished by our f/d-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Bayo's Heel Slide, ABK, and Witch Twist require about 2 SDI inputs. Heel Slide has 8 to 10 hitlag frames, ABK has 12 to 13 hitlag frames, and Witch Twist has 3 to 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash or |
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash, shorthop skewer, or wing blitz forward punishable with shield pushback), but remember to shield all three hits of her f-tilt. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset; that said, can catch her landing from up B usage if you act quick enough. |
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The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33). |
The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33). |
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His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits. |
His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits. |
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His dash attack, f-smash, d-smash, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits) |
Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits) |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly. |
If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly. |
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If Byleth misses with their down B, we pretty much get a free skewer. There's also grab and distanced plasma. Aymr has 30% worth of armor, but a sweetspoted skewer will still get them before it comes out. Also note Aymr hits us under platforms, so still avoid if under Byleth. |
If Byleth misses with their down B, we pretty much get a free skewer. There's also grab and distanced plasma. Aymr has 30% worth of armor, but a sweetspoted skewer will still get them before it comes out. Also note Aymr hits us under platforms, so still avoid if under Byleth. |
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Other than that, respect Byleth's reach. Their f-smash can be angled up or down too and has a most deadly sweetspot. The range also applies to their side B ( |
Other than that, respect Byleth's reach. Their f-smash can be angled up or down too and has a most deadly sweetspot. The range also applies to their side B (can be spot dodge punished, though also respect it in the air), fair, and bair. With their slow mobility, they play a defensive playstyle like us with trying to bait you in and punishing. Simply have to outplay them in that regard. That said, when you're up close when the sour spot of their attacks hit instead of the tipper, they do a lot less damage and knockback. |
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For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary. |
For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary. |
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You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash and turnaround d-tilt also applies. |
You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash and turnaround d-tilt also applies. |
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And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard |
And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard Byleth because of their bad air speed. It just kind of creates a wall that they can't get through; if you hit them far enough of course. |
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To avoid getting grabbed by Byleth up B when edgeguarding off stage, remember they have to be outside the range of the ledge if they’re trying to do it. If they’re in range of the ledge, they can’t grab you with it, so if they have no jump left for instance, can bait out their up B by pretending you’ll drop, and then jump back. |
To avoid getting grabbed by Byleth up B when edgeguarding off stage, remember they have to be outside the range of the ledge if they’re trying to do it. If they’re in range of the ledge, they can’t grab you with it, so if they have no jump left for instance, can bait out their up B by pretending you’ll drop, and then jump back. You can also still go for off stage deep edgeguards against them, but be horizontal to Byleth instead of above. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Their f-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab ( |
In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab (33 frames of end lag) to approach. He may jab after you shield an aerial, so wait for that and punish. |
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His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, |
His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, though be forward and quick with said option since the move bounces off of shield but has enough end lag), anti-air like up angle f-tilt if they do the aerial version, or step/fullhop back and see if they panic spot dodge or roll back, then see what you can do. If you're at somewhere high % when hit by it and launched higher, can also nair as a get-off-me before he manages to do an aerial followup. |
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Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage. |
Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage. |
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With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right. |
With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right. |
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For Falcon's risk/reward, don't forget that as soon as you get to around 30%, getting grabbed is better than getting hit by an aerial landing. Mid range at mid %, d-tilts are a bad idea because it lets him jump above you. If you're not sure of an interaction, shield except at very high %. Can fullhop nair to counteract his attempted landing aerials, especially when Ridley's cornered near ledge which can be more reliable than f-tilt or d-tilt when cornered. |
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When recovering off stage, even from a dash attack that sends you off at bit at low %, don't airdodge or swing with nair too early or he'll get you with something like dair. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs. |
Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs. |
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Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms |
Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms, so still shield it there. |
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Falcon's nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, both of which have 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His f-smash, neutral B, and down B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
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Credit to Mezcaul on dealing with neutral when at % mid range, and what to do when cornered and recovering. Also, external link on how to DI Falcon's combos: |
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https://x.com/goatsposts/status/1467211350371880965 |
https://x.com/goatsposts/status/1467211350371880965 |
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U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2. |
U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2. |
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The 4th hit of Chrom's side B requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid. |
Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid. |
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Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary. |
Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary. |
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His smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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His side B is generally 5 hits, with or without limit. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-smash and finishing touch are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS. |
His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS. |
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For weaknesses, low mobility. Also a poor disadvantage & exploitable recovery like us, weak grab game, and struggles against projectiles, so plasma can be good against them if used right. |
For weaknesses, low mobility. Also a poor disadvantage & exploitable recovery like us, weak grab game, and struggles against projectiles, so plasma can be good against them if used right. |
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If you’re in the air, you have to accept getting hit a couple of times if needed because losing your jumps and being stuck without them while they’re under you = gimped. |
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Try to make your ledge grabs as ambiguous as possible (aka mixup recovering low and horizontal to ledge, mixup which move you use) to try and avoid getting hit with pin. Respect pin on stage as well. |
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Gameplan is to try and bait them into whiffing and then getting stray punishes. If they aren’t approaching you, you can incentivize them with a couple of plasma but don’t get reckless and charge it while they’re too close. |
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You ''can'' outspace their nair/fair with f-tilt, so definitely stay grounded, but you have to be ready for pin. |
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Also while at ledge, Corrin's f-smash does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance; allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge. On the flipside, is easier to ledgetrap Corrin than edgeguard them. |
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* While at ledge, Corrin's {{clr|smash|forward smash}} does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance, allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge. |
* While at ledge, Corrin's {{clr|smash|forward smash}} does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance, allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge. |
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===== Corrin pin ===== |
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To sum it up, the Corrin pin tech chase setup is fake. The pin does put you into tumble, but you're actionable before landing, so you get two strong options with little risk that punishes them for being greedy for not taking the kick followup. |
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You can hold buffer an aerial that autocancels or has low end lag (our nair) that gives frame advantage and punishes on the pin drop release as well as their pin jump cancel. |
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With holding buffered aerials, during any action, you can hold buffer an input basically indefinitely. Pressing and holding A during Corrin's pin will automatically aerial as soon as you are actionable. Thus, you can press and hold A with the stick in neutral to buffer a nair, then have free control of the stick later while still guaranteeing a buffered nair. |
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This option select covers pin release while giving you the ability to use the left stick to survival DI the kick. This hold buffer trick also works with buffering specials, but that'll be a rare mixup in our case. |
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Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead. |
Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead. |
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Corrin f-smash (charged) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Their smashes are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Monkey Flip is mashable, but you’re very rarely gonna outrun it, so most of its punishing happens during the move with some kind of anti-air like retreating nair, u-tilt, up angle f-tilt, or even u-smash at kill %. It may be a good idea to spend less time shielding against Diddy and more time moving around him, with how quick his side B is which’ll punish you if you’re as comfy in your shield as some matchups. When caught by side B, jump release results in a footstool; also be ready to tech it at ~10%. |
Monkey Flip is mashable, but you’re very rarely gonna outrun it, so most of its punishing happens during the move with some kind of anti-air like retreating nair, u-tilt, up angle f-tilt, or even u-smash at kill %. It may be a good idea to spend less time shielding against Diddy and more time moving around him, with how quick his side B is which’ll punish you if you’re as comfy in your shield as some matchups. When caught by side B, jump release results in a footstool; also be ready to tech it at ~10%. |
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Another thing about monkey flip, despite how fast it may feel or seem, it still has plenty startup; 18 frames which is only 4 frames less than that of our command grab, so if you can mess up their close range you can just straight up beat the move. Monkey flip is preferred at mid range which is where Ridley typically wants to be at which it makes it hard to play his usual game, so you may have to bait him close range or play lame at far range. |
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Also focus on gaining space and stage control when he brings out the banana. When Diddy pulls the banana out (and only when he’s actively pulling it out), focus on where the banana is going instead of Diddy, as he’s going to jump to catch it. If you are close enough you can punish it, such as with nair, or try to estimate where he’ll go right after he picks it up. |
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Watch out for his d-tilt hand clap which is one of his main combo starters like with us, except he can followup with smashes (unless you're at too high % for his u-smash to connect) and has a 20% chance of causing tripping. Otherwise with his aerials that lead into combos, remember to DI away. His f-throw and b-throw can kill around 150% range at the ledge, and his u-throw can combo too. DI for Ridley is not as effective against his Hoo Ha kill confirm (d-throw > bair) though. |
Watch out for his d-tilt hand clap which is one of his main combo starters like with us, except he can followup with smashes (unless you're at too high % for his u-smash to connect) and has a 20% chance of causing tripping. Otherwise with his aerials that lead into combos, remember to DI away. His f-throw and b-throw can kill around 150% range at the ledge, and his u-throw can combo too. DI for Ridley is not as effective against his Hoo Ha kill confirm (d-throw > bair) though. |
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Platform stages are recommended against Diddy since landing against him can be difficult for the reasons established. |
Platform stages are recommended against Diddy since landing against him can be difficult for the reasons established. |
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For more specific things on the matchup... |
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===== General gameplan ===== |
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* Stop the Diddy from getting the banana in neutral. Diddy will catch approaches with fair, d-tilt, and side B to limit our approaches and pull the banana easily. Is important to spot the pattern of Diddy pulling the banana to punish him. |
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* Shield plenty at high %, angle your shield upwards, and then cancel with fullhops to bait a monkey flip. |
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* Diddy fair is laggy enough to punish with nair or shield grab. |
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===== Lose conditions ===== |
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* Nair > devastating dair at mid %. At the corner, avoid f-tilt or d-tilt to concentrate on the aerial. If touched, DI in the dair. |
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* If they never do a rising aerial against our shield at high % for an easy up smash punish. |
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* Try to spotdodge or roll out our side B. Jumping or rolling in is the solution. |
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* Try to punish his dash attack or side B kick on shield. Take into account the RPS situations. |
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===== Facing the banana ===== |
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* If Diddy banana is in front of us, it's a huge commitment; running in and d-tilt/f-tilt or dash attack to pick it up. Intercepting the banana in the air is not recommended because of our weak air game. Pick up the banana with f-tilt or dash attack, as both have good reach. |
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* Learn to ledge jump z-catch the banana placed in the corner. If Diddy has banana and shields at the corner while we are off stage, do not ledge jump. If we have no choice, move away from the wall to limit our chances of getting hit by the banana. |
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* Once the banana is in your hands, either ledgetrap with it, send it to Diddy, or place it on a platform if you can. Unfortunately, keeping it is not good, as we can no longer f-tilt or d-tilt. |
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* If Diddy has the banana, absolutely space the f-tilt or d-tilt. After these, shield as the first intention. Jumping a lot after is helpful. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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His f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Diddy up tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by SH SPR OoS. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). Likewise, his f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits. |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt too should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his u-smash can be shield punished by our f-smash. His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield though, so go for a reset there. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS and his u-smash is shield punished by our f-smash. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield, so go for a reset there. |
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Jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt too should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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If he charges his neutral B up close, it’s shield punishable with OoS aerials/grab, while the overcharge is very minus on shield. Horizontal rocket barrel's plenty punishable on shield too, even with d-smash. |
If he charges his neutral B up close, it’s shield punishable with OoS aerials/grab, while the overcharge is very minus on shield. Horizontal rocket barrel's plenty punishable on shield too, even with d-smash. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-86%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-86%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%) |
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Major credit to Mezcaul on the general gameplan, lose conditions, and specifics in facing the banana. |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 561: | Line 663: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible. Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage. |
While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible (same with his up B during startup). Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage. |
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For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair. |
For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair. |
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His u-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 589: | Line 693: | ||
|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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* Doc Tornado is 7 hits and -30 on shield, so can be punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. |
* Doc Tornado is 7 hits and -30 on shield, so can be punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. Be aware though it has 10% damage worth of armor. When it by it, have to do about 2 SDI inputs, each hit of which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Up smash has head intangibility on frames 9 to 13. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 634: | Line 742: | ||
Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile. |
Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile. |
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His f-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 684: | Line 796: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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His u-smash and d-smash have some intangibility on the legs, and his d-tilt. |
His u-smash and d-smash have some intangibility on the legs, and his d-tilt. |
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Line 689: | Line 803: | ||
Falco multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (2 hits), nair (4 hits), fair (6 hits) |
Falco multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (2 hits), nair (4 hits), fair (6 hits) |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 734: | Line 850: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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His d-smash has leg intangibility during frames 6-7. |
His d-smash has leg intangibility during frames 6-7. |
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Fox fair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 to 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His u-smash, d-smash, and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Fox can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > whatever, for delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > whatever, for delayed getup. |
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Line 760: | Line 882: | ||
Ganon will have to use clever movement and jump mixups to bait you into either a whiff or catch you shielding/dashing. Any move Ganon has will give him advantage if it lands, so you have to play outside his bubble at all times. For such a heavy hitter, Ganon’s moves are safer on shield than you’d expect; landing nair, fair, and bair are basically completely safe and you shouldn’t be attempting to directly punish them. Watch what they do after. Late hit dash attack and spaced d-tilt are also safe. |
Ganon will have to use clever movement and jump mixups to bait you into either a whiff or catch you shielding/dashing. Any move Ganon has will give him advantage if it lands, so you have to play outside his bubble at all times. For such a heavy hitter, Ganon’s moves are safer on shield than you’d expect; landing nair, fair, and bair are basically completely safe and you shouldn’t be attempting to directly punish them. Watch what they do after. Late hit dash attack and spaced d-tilt are also safe. |
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It’s important to keep in mind where you are on stage. The last thing you want is for Ganon to corner you. When shielding, watch out for |
It’s important to keep in mind where you are on stage. The last thing you want is for Ganon to corner you. When shielding, watch out for Wizkick crossups, and of course flame choke or dark dive setups, the latter of which is a go-to if you're cornered. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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Line 803: | Line 925: | ||
His dair if timed right along with air Wizkick can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there. |
His dair if timed right along with air Wizkick can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there. |
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While his dash attack does not crossup on our shield like it would for others, his grounded Wizkick still does, but it's riskier for him to do on account of Wizkick having more end lag and being less safe on shield (still -29, so can do a turnaround f-smash in which case). |
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His u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, and neutral B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 808: | Line 934: | ||
Our jab comes out well before his, so always use in up close scramble situations. His jab on shield is normally too safe for us to punish though, so reset. All his other normals you can at least nair OoS and such though. |
Our jab comes out well before his, so always use in up close scramble situations. His jab on shield is normally too safe for us to punish though, so reset. All his other normals you can at least nair OoS and such though. |
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His up smash is shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Wizkick is shield punished by Ridley f-smash, and air Wizkick (-34) is even more unsafe, but does much shield damage, so don't shield if it's not at full health. His f-smash, u-smash, d-smash 1, and Wizkick are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His up smash is shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Wizkick is shield punished by Ridley f-smash as pointed out, and air Wizkick (-34) is even more unsafe, but does much shield damage, so don't shield if it's not at full health. His f-smash, u-smash, d-smash 1, and Wizkick are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 860: | Line 986: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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SPR Greninja on plats if worried about him substitute countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
SPR Greninja on plats if worried about him substitute countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
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Greninja d-tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His f-smash, d-smash, fair, and Shadow Sneak are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Greninja can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 937: | Line 1,071: | ||
Hero dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
Hero dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
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His f-tilt 2, smashes, dair, and Hatchet Man are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, giving us the advantage in close range. |
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His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 3 and f-smash are at least -25 and thus shorthop SPR punished OoS. F-tilt 2 can even by shield punished by f-smash, while his jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so reset there. Hero side B you also want to punish OoS when close. |
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 3 and f-smash are at least -25 and thus shorthop SPR punished OoS. F-tilt 2 can even by shield punished by f-smash, while his jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so reset there. Hero side B you also want to punish OoS when close. |
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Line 970: | Line 1,108: | ||
They rely heavily on shielding. Climbers will keep their back turned from you, typically for bair pressure. When they mix that in with shielding, it's a bait to get you to try and grab them, or they'll desync and wall you out. This will be done mostly through their specials. |
They rely heavily on shielding. Climbers will keep their back turned from you, typically for bair pressure. When they mix that in with shielding, it's a bait to get you to try and grab them, or they'll desync and wall you out. This will be done mostly through their specials. |
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There's many setups to desyncing, so is up to you to understand how they desync; a common one being |
There's many setups to desyncing, so is up to you to understand how they desync; a common one being shorthop uair, apart from side B (squal hammer's also used to reconnect them during disadvantage). They also want to desync into a grab, which is dangerous as explained earlier, as is being above them. |
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Their multi-hit u-tilt is also something to watch out for, due to its combos and confirms. |
Their multi-hit u-tilt is also something to watch out for, due to its combos and confirms. |
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Line 976: | Line 1,114: | ||
D-throw doesn't hit Nana, making you vulnerable to getting smash attacked. Use f-throw (past ~15%), b-throw, or u-throw to separate them instead, making them the go-to for the MU rather than d-throw. Mix everything together and chase down Nana for a kill. |
D-throw doesn't hit Nana, making you vulnerable to getting smash attacked. Use f-throw (past ~15%), b-throw, or u-throw to separate them instead, making them the go-to for the MU rather than d-throw. Mix everything together and chase down Nana for a kill. |
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Aside from bair pressure, another reason they like to have their backs turned is so you grab the AI Climber instead of the player, letting the latter smash attack you, and they can shield you pummeling the AI, though it stops them from hitting you |
Aside from bair pressure, another reason they like to have their backs turned is so you grab the AI Climber instead of the player, letting the latter smash attack you, and they can shield you pummeling the AI, though it stops them from hitting you. |
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Line 991: | Line 1,129: | ||
If you condition them to not side B out of disadvantage, their other landing options are subpar, so maybe go for a quick uair which beats out their puny range before they start mashing B again. |
If you condition them to not side B out of disadvantage, their other landing options are subpar, so maybe go for a quick uair which beats out their puny range before they start mashing B again. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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IC multihits- u-tilt (7 hits), side B (8 hits with both & 11 hits solo), down B (9 hits) |
IC multihits- u-tilt (7 hits), side B (8 hits with both & 11 hits solo), down B (9 hits) |
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IC's Squall Hammer hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3, 4, or 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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D-tilt is their only normal that hits our ledge hang. |
D-tilt is their only normal that hits our ledge hang. |
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Line 1,033: | Line 1,177: | ||
His dair if timed right along with neutral B and up B hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
His dair if timed right along with neutral B and up B hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Eruption (neutral B) has super armor on medium and full charge, frames 6 to 10. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His smashes and aerials are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His jab 3 is punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. |
His jab 3 is punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. |
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All his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such, while his smashes are mostly punished by whatever. His landing aerials are usually too safe though unless you can specifically punish nair in the way that was mentioned earlier. Quickdraw can be from -28 to -22 on shield, and his up B is -29 like the jab 3. |
All his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such, while his smashes are mostly punished by whatever. His landing aerials are usually too safe though unless you can specifically punish nair in the way that was mentioned earlier. Quickdraw can be from -28 to -22 on shield, and his up B is -29 like the jab 3. If he whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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His jab 2/3, smashes, neutral B, side B, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab 2/3, smashes, neutral B, side B, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 1,105: | Line 1,253: | ||
His d-smash and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,180: | Line 1,332: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Inkling dair & roller hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Inkling dair & roller hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Her f-smash, u-smash, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,217: | Line 1,375: | ||
Her dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. |
Her dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Isabelle's normals are punished by nair OoS |
Isabelle's normals are punished by nair OoS. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Her f-tilt, dash attack, f-smash. and d-smash are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are also punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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Ridley kill confirm- |
Ridley kill confirm- |
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Line 1,239: | Line 1,401: | ||
She'll wait for you to whiff and fly in & punish (her wall of pain speaks for itself), so time your anti-airs (i. e. u-tilt). Also understand how she chooses to approach from the air in neutral. |
She'll wait for you to whiff and fly in & punish (her wall of pain speaks for itself), so time your anti-airs (i. e. u-tilt). Also understand how she chooses to approach from the air in neutral. |
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Her 9-hit dair is a good combo starter, and confirms into Rest (is invulnerable on |
Her 9-hit dair is a good combo starter, and confirms into Rest (is invulnerable on frames 1-27). Also respect her bair as a potential kill move. |
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Far as her Pound side B, respect its shield damage and as a neutral tool with a lingering hitbox that combos (she'll DJ out of it or land with an aerial). Shielding when not cornered is a solid option, but Pound keeps you on your toes. |
Far as her Pound side B, respect its shield damage and as a neutral tool with a lingering hitbox that combos (she'll DJ out of it or land with an aerial). Shielding when not cornered is a solid option, but Pound keeps you on your toes. |
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Line 1,245: | Line 1,407: | ||
When she uses Sing, shield and angle it if you have to, or otherwise roll/jump away after shielding. Sing has 34 frames of end lag, so take advantage of your range. Also hold shield if she uses Sing at ledge. Don't shield Rollout though; treat it the same as you would Yoshi's Egg Roll by jumping over. |
When she uses Sing, shield and angle it if you have to, or otherwise roll/jump away after shielding. Sing has 34 frames of end lag, so take advantage of your range. Also hold shield if she uses Sing at ledge. Don't shield Rollout though; treat it the same as you would Yoshi's Egg Roll by jumping over. |
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If you break her shield, get gets KO'd automatically, |
If you break her shield, get gets KO'd automatically, though this is rare. Her nair OoS is good at tech chases, so don't miss tech, and punish OoS rising aerials as always. |
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Her throws are weak and don't lead into true combos, so don't worry much about getting grabbed. When she recovers, can try to footstool. |
Her throws are weak and don't lead into true combos, so don't worry much about getting grabbed. When she recovers, can try to footstool. |
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In disadvantage, her d-smash hits ledge hang, and likes to ledgetrap with nair which covers most options. They can mix it up with a fullhop nair too so they can DJ out of it, but watch if they over-commit. |
In disadvantage, her d-smash hits ledge hang, and likes to ledgetrap with nair which covers most options. They can mix it up with a fullhop nair too so they can DJ out of it, but watch if they over-commit. When being juggled, we can use dair as a mixup against her landing uair if she's expecting an airdodge. |
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Line 1,256: | Line 1,418: | ||
Her d-smash, dair, and Sing can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Her d-smash, dair, and Sing can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Against a Puff with good execution, most of the match is either shielding/crouching while doing either d-tilt or retreating nairs (to neutralize more of their specials) and f-tilts. If your shield is too low you’ll get poked by rising dair and Pound, and that’s where the “cutscene” starts. |
Against a Puff with good execution, most of the match is either shielding/crouching while doing either d-tilt or retreating nairs (to neutralize more of their specials) and f-tilts. If your shield is too low you’ll get poked by rising dair and Pound, and that’s where the “cutscene” starts. |
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Puff has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
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Her Sing and Rest are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,294: | Line 1,462: | ||
When recovering, get a feel of their off stage edgeguarding, and mix it up to avoid the downward aerial version of his gun and getting potentially gimped. With Joker combos, DI away from plats, jump to avoid diagonal grapple, SDI up and left/right if he does uairs (or nair if diagonally above), and stay out of his dash attack range when you get out of said combos. Despite acting as a tether grab, grapple hook can be shielded like Isabelle's fishing rod. |
When recovering, get a feel of their off stage edgeguarding, and mix it up to avoid the downward aerial version of his gun and getting potentially gimped. With Joker combos, DI away from plats, jump to avoid diagonal grapple, SDI up and left/right if he does uairs (or nair if diagonally above), and stay out of his dash attack range when you get out of said combos. Despite acting as a tether grab, grapple hook can be shielded like Isabelle's fishing rod. |
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Basically in this matchup, you have to emphasize not getting opened up and edgeguarding Joker, so have good shield discipline all around and especially respect arsene Joker's landings. Don't try to challenge him because you'll explode if he hits you with landing fair or dair. |
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Pay attention to how your opponent recovers and how they deal with plasma. Do they like going low? Do they immediately jump out of hitstun? Do they stall with guns? Gather as much info to net those edgeguards. Also, against arsene if they hug the stage to recover you can do SPR to ledge holding down (thus bypassing it) to catch them and then stage spike them. If you mistime, you can get a ledge trump. |
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Try not to recover low against arsene because of the counter, but sometimes the Joker players forget about it. |
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Line 1,299: | Line 1,474: | ||
Multi-hits: His fair, f-tilt, dash attack, and d-smash are 2 hits, while his u-tilt is 5 hits. |
Multi-hits: His fair, f-tilt, dash attack, and d-smash are 2 hits, while his u-tilt is 5 hits. |
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Joker uair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their arsene up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His u-smash and d-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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SPR Joker on plats if worried about him tetrakarn countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
SPR Joker on plats if worried about him tetrakarn countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt). |
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Line 1,326: | Line 1,509: | ||
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (84-87%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (84-87%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-96%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-96%) |
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Credit to Paco on some of the nuances of neutral against arsene Joker as well as pushing your advantage. |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 1,370: | Line 1,555: | ||
With Kazuya down B, aside from DI'ing it from on stage like other command grabs, Kazuya dies first at the bottom blast zone and you can recover if you react quick enough. |
With Kazuya down B, aside from DI'ing it from on stage like other command grabs, Kazuya dies first at the bottom blast zone and you can recover if you react quick enough. |
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Aside from Kazuya d-smash being able to break shield, also be aware that it can spike if used at ledge, so be aware of it when timing your recovery. His nair when used off stage can also spike, but can be difficult for him to space. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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While you can obviously SDI out of Kazuya's 10 hit jab, it's easier said than done, as they can require 3, 4, or 5 SDI inputs, each hit of which only has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. That said, Kazuya's other moves you can do a minimum of at least one SDI input to try and get out of his usual combos, aside from the standard DI method with Kazuya as explained earlier. SDI's appear to work even better than the regular DI, for that matter. Dash walk SDI particularly is said to work well against the usual Kazuya stuff involving EWGF, in which it's best to shield right after you escape the EWGF followup (i.e. crouch jab or nair), but can try flick SDI too if that's what you're more comfortable with. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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One way of baiting out laser before edgeguarding him is getting on ledge, that way you're still in a dangerous position and can punish what he does after. |
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Skewer can beat out Rage Drive if timed and positioned right. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His side taunt, crouching down-forward tilt (Tombstone Crusher), and f-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 1,385: | Line 1,582: | ||
On a somewhat related side note, Kazuya can use his double jump after up B (typically used in the form of aerials), but he can’t use his DJ again until after landing. |
On a somewhat related side note, Kazuya can use his double jump after up B (typically used in the form of aerials), but he can’t use his DJ again until after landing. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 1,421: | Line 1,616: | ||
For weaknesses, they struggle to land and are easy to juggle, with focus attack being their only mixup which you can punish as aforementioned. We camp them well too with our ranged moves & plasma. Their edgeguarding is poor too, though their dair can spike but is hard to land. They'll more likely go for a ledge trump which you can avoid by delaying your recovery or jumping over the ledge. Lastly, their poor recovery. |
For weaknesses, they struggle to land and are easy to juggle, with focus attack being their only mixup which you can punish as aforementioned. We camp them well too with our ranged moves & plasma. Their edgeguarding is poor too, though their dair can spike but is hard to land. They'll more likely go for a ledge trump which you can avoid by delaying your recovery or jumping over the ledge. Lastly, their poor recovery. |
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For f-tilt (down angle) 2 framing, remember that you’re aiming for the end of their up B, not the time where most characters snap to ledge. Shotos will float for just a second before grabbing ledge and that’s where you aim for; being slightly late or early there is of little consequence. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Ryu/Ken normals that can combo into specials- |
Ryu/Ken normals that can combo into specials- |
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Neutral attack 1 and 2 (tapped) |
* Neutral attack 1 and 2 (tapped) |
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Neutral attack (close, held) |
* Neutral attack (close, held) |
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F-tilt (close, tapped) |
* F-tilt (close, tapped) |
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U-tilt (held or tapped) |
* U-tilt (held or tapped) |
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D-tilt (held or tapped) |
* D-tilt (held or tapped) |
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D-smash |
* D-smash |
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Nair |
* Nair |
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Fair |
* Fair |
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Uair |
* Uair |
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Bair |
* Bair |
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Dair |
* Dair |
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Up tilt (light) requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 9 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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The tatsu side B has leg intangibility, so don't try to hit it with d-tilt when active. Is thusly recommended to use up angle f-tilt if you challenge with it at all. |
The tatsu side B has leg intangibility, so don't try to hit it with d-tilt when active. Is thusly recommended to use up angle f-tilt if you challenge with it at all. Can also get an easy 2-frame on them when they use tatsu and get a free edgeguard because of how much end lag tatsu has. |
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SDI in on tatsu which can create fallouts and can usually mash an option because they're negative afterwards. If they up tilt, then you can SDI up & away because proximity jab doesn't work as well if you do that, and if the Ken/Ryu doesn't know how to deal with it, just mash jump + nair out of the early % combos. |
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The versions of their up B also have different invulnerability frames, as do some of their normals. |
The versions of their up B also have different invulnerability frames, as do some of their normals. |
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Line 1,448: | Line 1,651: | ||
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (92-95%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (92-95%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-108%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-108%) |
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Credit to rydra on the specifics about tatsumaki (Ken's side B). |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 1,498: | Line 1,703: | ||
SPR beats out his inhale if timed or spaced right like if you dash back or otherwise move away first. SPR also beats holding inhale as long as it starts outside the windbox. |
SPR beats out his inhale if timed or spaced right like if you dash back or otherwise move away first. SPR also beats holding inhale as long as it starts outside the windbox. |
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Dedede has a total of 5 jumps, with 4 midair jumps. With how slow his airspeed is, one might think he would have slow fall speed too, but he actually has one of the fastest falling speeds in the game, so keep in mind. |
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Inhale is mashable. |
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Inhale is mashable, grounded Jet Hammer has 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
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His u-smash and Jet Hammer (full charge) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,569: | Line 1,780: | ||
** {{clr|special|Skewer}} |
** {{clr|special|Skewer}} |
||
</small> |
</small> |
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You can grab K Rool if you timely jump over the krown toss and he’s in end lag; you still have to worry about the returning krown, so timely use the invincibility frames on your d-throw animation to get past it, and pummel while waiting for krown to return before the d-throw. Alternatively, you can do a landing SPR if spaced right. |
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K Rool enters end lag if he grabs the krown back, and to avoid this he has to commit to a punishable option like an aerial, grab, spotdodge, sheild, etc; so you can wait and try to meet their pace. Roll is something he’ll commonly do to pick up the krown. |
K Rool enters end lag if he grabs the krown back, and to avoid this he has to commit to a punishable option like an aerial, grab, spotdodge, sheild, etc; so you can wait and try to meet their pace. Roll is something he’ll commonly do to pick up the krown. |
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Line 1,609: | Line 1,822: | ||
</small> |
</small> |
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The suction ledgetrapping is mostly fake, in that |
The suction ledgetrapping is mostly fake, in that if he holds neutral B right at ledge, can ledge getup attack, and if he does suction just beyond ledge getup attack range, can ledge jump wisely. |
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Same for when he does krown to ledgetrap, in which you ledge jump to get behind him. Otherwise wait out the krown or d-smash at ledge since if you shield krown on the way back, he can grab you. When being edgeguarded, try to tech his nair with the bad angle it sends you, and otherwise mixup or delay your recovery timings. |
Same for when he does krown to ledgetrap, in which you ledge jump to get behind him. Otherwise wait out the krown or d-smash at ledge since if you shield krown on the way back, he can grab you. When being edgeguarded, try to tech his nair with the bad angle it sends you, and otherwise mixup or delay your recovery timings. |
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Line 1,616: | Line 1,829: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
||
Dash attack will beat King K. Rool's shorthop if spaced. |
Dash attack will beat King K. Rool's shorthop if spaced. |
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Krown has so much end lag that you can run over it and SPR him, and then jump release it before the krown comes back. |
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In a situation where both you and the K Rool are at high % and you do a Wing Blitz forward trade in exchange for getting hit by krown toss on the way back, getting hit by it knocks you upward in the air a bit, putting you in a position to dair him off stage when he uses his jump. |
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K Rool has intangibility with u-tilt like Ridley (in Rool’s case on the arm), and on the head during u-smash and uair, so don’t try landing on him at all. Also, his d-tilt can hit us when we’re under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
K Rool has intangibility with u-tilt like Ridley (in Rool’s case on the arm), and on the head during u-smash and uair, so don’t try landing on him at all. Also, his d-tilt can hit us when we’re under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Line 1,622: | Line 1,839: | ||
With krown as an item, Ridley can forward toss it, fair, and catch the krown while shield poking. If K Rool uses krown toss nearby in neutral, retreating nair (sweetspot) should be able to break the armor since it's 12%. |
With krown as an item, Ridley can forward toss it, fair, and catch the krown while shield poking. If K Rool uses krown toss nearby in neutral, retreating nair (sweetspot) should be able to break the armor since it's 12%. |
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SDI against his up B when he uses propeller against you offensively to KO you into the upper blast zone. Likewise, when K Rool does an up throw after blunderbuss suction, expect a possible up B and SDI to avoid getting pushed into the upper blast zone. |
SDI against his up B when he uses propeller against you offensively to KO you into the upper blast zone (specifically, it requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's). Likewise, when K Rool does an up throw after blunderbuss suction, expect a possible up B and SDI to avoid getting pushed into the upper blast zone. |
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His dash attack, smashes, fair, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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K Rool's normals can be punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and like Bowser or Wario, his dash attack and smashes are unsafe on shield enough to be punished by Rid f-smash (turnaround f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS if his dash attack crosses up) and u-smash OoS. Watch out for the shield damage that his d-smash causes though, and his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. |
K Rool's normals can be punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and like Bowser or Wario, his dash attack and smashes are unsafe on shield enough to be punished by Rid f-smash (turnaround f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS if his dash attack crosses up) and u-smash OoS. Watch out for the shield damage that his d-smash causes though, and his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. |
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Line 1,635: | Line 1,854: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (113-127%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (113-127%) |
||
Credit to the old Ridley JMU doc for a certain chunk of this info, |
Credit to the old Ridley JMU doc for a certain chunk of this info, credit to smub on some of the details on neutral and advantage state, and to Zeta on the Wing Blitz and krown toss trade scenario. |
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https://x.com/5atez/status/1855030959558869353?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 1,664: | Line 1,885: | ||
His d-smash, dair, and Stone hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
His d-smash, dair, and Stone hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid. |
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Has a 3 |
Has a 3-hit fair and 6-hit dair. |
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Kirby dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. What's more, Kirby up B hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Kirby’s and by extension Dedede’s inhale is mashable. Drift back fair after mashing out of Kirby’s since he can confirm footstool on neutral or DI in & can punish mash out jump nair with his fair for some reason. |
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Use retreating nair for neutralizing more of their specials. |
Use retreating nair for neutralizing more of their specials. |
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Kirby has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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The Hammer Flip side B has super armor on the ground when fully charged. |
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Kirby’s and by extension Dedede’s inhale is mashable. Drift back fair after mashing out of Kirby’s since he can confirm footstool on neutral or DI in & can punish mash out jump nair with his fair for some reason. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer bypasses Stone armor. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable; as is dash attack, but it crosses up shield, so be ready to turnaround f-smash. His d-smash is shorthop skewer OoS punishable. Normals are too safe besides those and smashes, and landing aerials too safe besides dair. Side B is -26 to -18, and up B is -21. Although Stone is very minus (even punished by shield drop > d-smash), Stone does too much shield damage to usually be worth it. |
His rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable; as is dash attack, but it crosses up shield, so be ready to turnaround f-smash. His d-smash is shorthop skewer OoS punishable. Normals are too safe besides those and smashes, and landing aerials too safe besides dair. Side B is -26 to -18, and up B is -21. Although Stone is very minus (even punished by shield drop > d-smash), Stone does too much shield damage to usually be worth it. |
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Line 1,708: | Line 1,937: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
||
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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His f-smash 2 and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,757: | Line 1,990: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
||
Mac nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Mac side B up close crosses up on our shield, so may need to do a turnaround punish, but it's still -36 to -39. |
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His KO Punch is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward or anything in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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While not particularly strong, his dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
While not particularly strong, his dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Aside from super armor on his smashes & KO Uppercut and intangibility on his grounded side B, Mac's neutral B has 8% worth of armor when charging, and 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not. |
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His rapid jab finisher is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his grounded normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such. His landing aerials besides bair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. His specials are especially unsafe, with full charged neutral B being -82 and side B being -39 to -36. |
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His rapid jab finisher is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his grounded normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such. His landing aerials besides bair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. His specials are especially unsafe, with full charged neutral B being -82 and side B being -39 to -36. If he whiffs a slip counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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His jab 3, rapid jab finisher, u-smash, neutral B (regardless of charge), and side B are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab 3, rapid jab finisher, u-smash, neutral B (regardless of charge), and side B are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 1,800: | Line 2,043: | ||
Lucario multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), nair (2 hits), dair (2 hits) |
Lucario multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), nair (2 hits), dair (2 hits) |
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His u-smash, d-smash, bair, and Force Palm are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,840: | Line 2,087: | ||
Lucas d-smash and dair hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
Lucas d-smash and dair hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Lucas multihits- d-smash (3 hits), nair (4 hits) |
Lucas multihits- d-smash (3 hits), nair (4 hits), PK Thunder self-hit (12 hits) |
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Lucas nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. PK thunder requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals besides d-tilt and f-tilt are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by whatever (is -54 on shield). His landing aerials besides the 4-hit dair (can punish with u-smash) are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK freeze is mostly safe on shield, as is magnet, but PK fire and thunder up close are about as unsafe on shield as Ness's. |
His normals besides d-tilt and f-tilt are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by whatever (is -54 on shield and whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward, etc). His landing aerials besides the 4-hit dair (can punish with u-smash) are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK freeze is mostly safe on shield, as is magnet, but PK fire and thunder up close are about as unsafe on shield as Ness's. |
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PK Fire and Thunder are also minus on shield enough for you to dash grab or dash attack if he's nearby (same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %). Just don't shield too much or obviously against them to where he can grab you. |
PK Fire and Thunder are also minus on shield enough for you to dash grab or dash attack if he's nearby (same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %). Just don't shield too much or obviously against them to where he can grab you. |
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Line 1,894: | Line 2,147: | ||
The main difference from Marth is not having to worry as much about spacing, while Marth has to rely on tippers. They're both floatier than Roy and Chrom though, and will use side B more-so to stall their landing and throw you off, in addition to their neutral B being a more reliable quick shield breaker that lives up to its name, as any hit + neutral B with no charge will break a full shield. If you see it coming, always take the hit instead of shielding it. Also watch for their neutral B as a landing mixup or an option from ledge as a surprise attack. |
The main difference from Marth is not having to worry as much about spacing, while Marth has to rely on tippers. They're both floatier than Roy and Chrom though, and will use side B more-so to stall their landing and throw you off, in addition to their neutral B being a more reliable quick shield breaker that lives up to its name, as any hit + neutral B with no charge will break a full shield. If you see it coming, always take the hit instead of shielding it. Also watch for their neutral B as a landing mixup or an option from ledge as a surprise attack. |
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Her f-smash, u-smash, uair, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so always use when up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so always use when up close. |
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Besides her safe d-tilt, her normals are at least punished by our OoS aerials and such. Her landing aerials are too safe though, so reset there. Aside from her neutral B that you shouldn't shield against, her side B hits are various levels of unsafe like with Roy/Chrom. |
Besides her safe d-tilt, her normals are at least punished by our OoS aerials and such. Her landing aerials are too safe though, so reset there. Aside from her neutral B that you shouldn't shield against, her side B hits are various levels of unsafe like with Roy/Chrom. If she whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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Her jab 2, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and side B hits are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Her jab 2, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and side B hits are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 1,926: | Line 2,181: | ||
If a Luigi camps you by spamming fireball from a corner, don’t fall for the bait and be overeager to approach, because he wants you to do that so he can get a grab or up B punish. Approach at mid range with pivot f-tilt or sliding d-tilt. Flickshot plasma can work too to counter-camp. Otherwise wait for him to approach and out-patient him. |
If a Luigi camps you by spamming fireball from a corner, don’t fall for the bait and be overeager to approach, because he wants you to do that so he can get a grab or up B punish. Approach at mid range with pivot f-tilt or sliding d-tilt. Flickshot plasma can work too to counter-camp. Otherwise wait for him to approach and out-patient him. |
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In the air, watch out for Luigi’s down B which is a good combo breaker and decent KO option when high up with its knockback. He’s invincible during the first few frames of the move, so wait it out if need be and then tilt poke him. Aside from a get-off-me, he may also use it when falling toward you. Shield it in that case but if hit by it, can escape with SDI up. His |
In the air, watch out for Luigi’s down B which is a good combo breaker and decent KO option when high up with its knockback. He’s invincible during the first few frames of the move, so wait it out if need be and then tilt poke him. Aside from a get-off-me, he may also use it when falling toward you. Shield it in that case but if hit by it, can escape with SDI up. His dash attack you similarly want to shield with how long lasting it is. |
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* Up throw > uair works on Luigi's who mash down B. In other words, the invincibility of his down B wears off by the time we get our uair out. |
* Up throw > uair works on Luigi's who mash down B. In other words, the invincibility of his down B wears off by the time we get our uair out. |
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Line 1,952: | Line 2,207: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
||
His dash attack and down B are 5 hits. |
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His up B and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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As a mixup, plasma armor can help against Luigi side B by charging neutral B off stage and then can freely dunk him, like if his jump is already used up. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 1,982: | Line 2,243: | ||
This matchup will test your spacing. Mario's combo game is extremely powerful at low to mid %, and less dangerous at high %. Mario's many combo starting moves are fast and have low lag, so good spacing is a necessity. |
This matchup will test your spacing. Mario's combo game is extremely powerful at low to mid %, and less dangerous at high %. Mario's many combo starting moves are fast and have low lag, so good spacing is a necessity. |
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In neutral, Mario will try to land aerials out of a shorthop and fastfalling. They generally approach with |
In neutral, Mario will try to land aerials out of a shorthop and fastfalling. They generally approach with shorthop bair which is relatively safe on shield, can crossup, or lead to a potential 0 to death combo. He will also use uair at low % to start a long, potentially deadly chain. Some Mario's will simply spam this move, hoping one lands. It doesn't have much range, so our nair, fair, u-tilt, or f-tilt to beat it. Mario can also use nair to start combos. |
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Similar to Link's nairs and such, Mario's has little lag, is safe on shield, combos into his best moves, and lingers for a good while. The best option to Mario approaching is to back up and use a tilt (i.e. up angle f-tilt) to deny them an advantage. Mario will also use fireball to make you shield, allowing him to grab you and perform a true death combo consisting of d-throw > uair > nair > uair > fastfall uair > fair at very low %. He can also simply combo out of the fireballs themselves with uair. |
Similar to Link's nairs and such, Mario's has little lag, is safe on shield, combos into his best moves, and lingers for a good while. The best option to Mario approaching is to back up and use a tilt (i.e. up angle f-tilt) to deny them an advantage. Mario will also use fireball to make you shield, allowing him to grab you and perform a true death combo consisting of d-throw > uair > nair > uair > fastfall uair > fair at very low %. He can also simply combo out of the fireballs themselves with uair. |
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This is the hard part. Mario's already insane combo game is accented on Ridley's large frame. Getting hit by uair at low % will lead to a 40-50% combo that is virtually inescapable, and the rare times you can airdodge out can be read and punished even harder. |
This is the hard part. Mario's already insane combo game is accented on Ridley's large frame. Getting hit by uair at low % will lead to a 40-50% combo that is virtually inescapable, and the rare times you can airdodge out can be read and punished even harder. |
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Platforms on Battlefield allow Mario to ladder Ridley up to the top blastzone and get a free stock, so definitely avoid this stage. |
Platforms on Battlefield allow Mario to ladder Ridley up to the top blastzone and get a free stock, so definitely avoid this stage. SDI down and away to avoid dying to up B near the top and to maneuver away from Mario's combo. DI upwards to increase the knockback and give yourself more of a chance. |
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Avoid being unsafe on Mario's shield at death % (100 and above), especially from behind since Mario's up smash is his go-to kill move. His head is intangible during the move as well, similar to Ridley up smash. |
Avoid being unsafe on Mario's shield at death % (100 and above), especially from behind since Mario's up smash is his go-to kill move. His head is intangible during the move as well, similar to Ridley up smash. |
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Mario is at a great danger when above Ridley, as his short range cannot help him against Ridley's disjointed u-tilt and u-smash, or nair, fair, and uair. They will usually do an airdodge to return to the ground and reset, which can be easily punished like with an f-smash. |
Mario is at a great danger when above Ridley, as his short range cannot help him against Ridley's disjointed u-tilt and u-smash, or nair, fair, and uair. They will usually do an airdodge to return to the ground and reset, which can be easily punished like with an f-smash. |
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Mario's recovery is only decent, and Ridley nair and fair should be enough to gimp him at 70% and above. His up B is also pretty easy to time with your down angle |
Mario's recovery is only decent, and Ridley nair and fair should be enough to gimp him at 70% and above. His up B is also pretty easy to time with your down angle Wing Blitz or down angle f-tilt. Be aware that they can use cape to stall their recovery and cause you to mistime your attacks. |
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Mario won't stay at the ledge for long and when stuck, will usually jump with a fireball to cover themselves or jump to a platform. Our nair can beat both of these options. Some will drop down and jump up with an aerial, usually uair to start a combo or put you in disadvantage. Either shield and reset or use f |
Mario won't stay at the ledge for long and when stuck, will usually jump with a fireball to cover themselves or jump to a platform. Our nair can beat both of these options. Some will drop down and jump up with an aerial, usually uair to start a combo or put you in disadvantage. Either shield and reset or use f-tilt or d-tilt to out-space Mario. Ridley's f-smash can be used to whiff punish Mario's bair and uair, since Ridley backs up a bit during the move and said aerials have more than enough end lag. |
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Mario's best OoS options- Up B (frame 3), nair (frame 6), uair (frame 7), u-smash (frame 9). |
Mario's best OoS options- Up B (frame 3), nair (frame 6), uair (frame 7), u-smash (frame 9). |
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Like us, Mario's will use turnaround up smash to take stocks. It can be shielded easily but is only punishable with our bair OoS. Use d |
Like us, Mario's will use turnaround up smash to take stocks. It can be shielded easily but is only punishable with our bair OoS. Use d-tilt, f-tilt, fair, and nair to stop Mario from approaching with this option. |
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Mario can B-reverse his cape to ledge trump easily, and can combo it into bair as a kill. Avoid staying on ledge at kill %. |
Mario can B-reverse his cape to ledge trump easily, and can combo it into bair as a kill. Avoid staying on ledge at kill %. |
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Mario's uair > fastfall uair > fair is a common kill confirm at ledge. Don't use unsafe moves on Mario's shield when you're near ledge because this combo works OoS as well at low to mid % (50ish). Also tech his fair when on stage. |
Mario's uair > fastfall uair > fair is a common kill confirm at ledge. Don't use unsafe moves on Mario's shield when you're near ledge because this combo works OoS as well at low to mid % (50ish). Also tech his fair when on stage. |
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Can try to escape his ladder combos into up B or dair with SDI down & away. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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* Placeholder |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (84-87%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-98%) |
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}} |
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Mega Man multihits- Crossup dash attack (8 hits), u-smash (7 hits), uair under a plat (7 hits) |
Mega Man multihits- Crossup dash attack (8 hits), u-smash (7 hits), uair under a plat (7 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Mega Man's jab/f-tilt/nair is punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab if shielded up close. His u-tilt and d-tilt have enough end lag to be punished by f-smash when shielded (or u-smash OoS for the u-tilt before he lands), tho have to turnaround f-smash (or shorthop turnaround skewer OoS) for d-tilt due to its ability to crossup. His u-smash and d-smash when shielded can also be punished by Rid f-smash, while dash attack is punished by our OoS aerials or Rid u-smash due to it being able to crossup too. MM d-smash is even skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback. |
Mega Man's jab/f-tilt/nair is punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab if shielded up close, and our jab 1 comes out before his. His u-tilt and d-tilt have enough end lag to be punished by f-smash when shielded (or u-smash OoS for the u-tilt before he lands), tho have to turnaround f-smash (or shorthop turnaround skewer OoS) for d-tilt due to its ability to crossup. His u-smash and d-smash when shielded can also be punished by Rid f-smash, while dash attack is punished by our OoS aerials or Rid u-smash due to it being able to crossup too. MM d-smash is even skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback. |
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His jab/f-tilt/nair, crossup d-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack are also u-tilt punishable on shield should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His jab/f-tilt/nair, crossup d-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack are also u-tilt punishable on shield should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Watch out for his ladder combos. To prevent being put in that situation, avoid his dash attack (is -18 on shield but crosses up on it) and dash grab (32 frames of end lag), two main ways to start it (can directional airdodge through them as a landing mixup) which he may bait & punish with. If you do get caught in it, hold your stick toward MK and upward or SDI those directions, helping you escape. Another potential option is pick a stage with a larger blast zone so you don't die as early. Regardless, once you’re at higher %, those touch of death combos no longer apply, but mix up your SDI when it does like with Bayonetta. |
Watch out for his ladder combos. To prevent being put in that situation, avoid his dash attack (is -18 on shield but crosses up on it) and dash grab (32 frames of end lag), two main ways to start it (can directional airdodge through them as a landing mixup) which he may bait & punish with. If you do get caught in it, hold your stick toward MK and DI upward or SDI those directions, helping you escape. Another potential option is pick a stage with a larger blast zone so you don't die as early. Regardless, once you’re at higher %, those touch of death combos no longer apply, but mix up your SDI when it does like with Bayonetta. |
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* You basically see whether the MK is drifting forward a lot or barely drifting at all, and if they’re drifting forward you SDI in to try to get hit by the back hit of uair, and if they’re not drifting much at all, you SDI down and away to fall out of the combo. |
* You basically see whether the MK is drifting forward a lot or barely drifting at all, and if they’re drifting forward you SDI in to try to get hit by the back hit of uair, and if they’re not drifting much at all, you SDI down and away to fall out of the combo. |
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Respect MK's rushdown playstyle. He's the only multi-jump character who also has good mobility, making him great at approaching from the ground and the air. If he's in the air, he'll often wait for you to whiff an attack and move in, so don't fall for it. Also remember his multi-hits when shielding; rapid jab, 3 hit f-tilt, spinning u-tilt, 3 hit u-smash, 3 hit fair & bair, 10 hit d-throw, and specials such as drill rush that's 12 hits. |
Respect MK's rushdown playstyle. He's the only multi-jump character who also has good mobility, making him great at approaching from the ground and the air. If he's in the air, he'll often wait for you to whiff an attack and move in, so don't fall for it. Also remember his multi-hits when shielding; rapid jab, 3 hit f-tilt, spinning u-tilt, 3 hit u-smash, 3 hit fair & bair, 10 hit d-throw, and specials such as drill rush that's 12 hits. |
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* If drill rush whiffs on the ground, it bounces him which you can punish another way by using aerials. |
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Dash attack will beat Meta Knight's shorthop if spaced. |
Dash attack will beat Meta Knight's shorthop if spaced. |
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MK has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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MK uair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His neutral B and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, while his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, except for his d-tilt and f-smash; after shielding his f-smash, he may go for a d-smash or something after that you can punish. MK u-smash is punished by |
His rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, while his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, except for his d-tilt and f-smash; after shielding his f-smash, he may go for a d-smash or something after that you can punish. MK u-smash and maybe side B is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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His dash attack may crossup on shield, so be ready to do a turnaround punish. All his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. His specials however are all pretty minus on shield ( |
His dash attack may crossup on shield, so be ready to do a turnaround punish. All his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there. His specials however are all pretty minus on shield (neutral B mach tornado being -81, side B being -24, and down B dimensional cape being -44, the first and last of which can be shield punished by d-smash, etc), along with putting him in freefall after if used unsafely, which is most of the time except when recovering. |
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His rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 3, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, specials, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
His rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 2 or 3, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, specials, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Shadow Ball's wavy movement can make it hard to dodge, and fully charge usually hits you at ledge, so don't hang there too long. Don't forget the movement mixups and B-reverses too. Even uncharged shots can lead to combos, so be ready to shield, jump, or dodge; jumping usually being the best option. |
Shadow Ball's wavy movement can make it hard to dodge, and fully charge usually hits you at ledge, so don't hang there too long. Don't forget the movement mixups and B-reverses too. Even uncharged shots can lead to combos, so be ready to shield, jump, or dodge; jumping usually being the best option. |
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Be careful of plasma with its side B reflector in mind, which can also aid its recovery. Is also a command grab; when you get flipped by it, can attack, airdodge/tech, or jump. Is an RPS situation to try and get away from what you think Mewtwo will do. |
Be careful of plasma with its side B reflector in mind, which can also aid its recovery. Is also a command grab; when you get flipped by it, can attack, airdodge/tech, or jump. Is an RPS situation to try and get away from what you think Mewtwo will do. Can try to airdodge through if Mewtwo does a fair, but will be more likely to get us since Ridley's a big body. If Mewtwo holds still to punish airdodge, then attack instead, and if Mewtwo spaces back to avoid your attack and punish, then better off jumping away and getting back to neutral. You're typically not gonna be able to react to all this though, so catch on to Mewtwo's habits. Also remember if Confusion whiffs, you'll have 44 frames to punish with something, so there is a risk to them throwing it out in neutral. |
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Keep Disable in mind and don't be too predictable near Mewtwo. If used in the air, it knocks you back without stunning, and now has intangibility on frames 10-16, so can be used to beat out attacks if timed right. Also watch out if Mewtwo does a tech followed by down B, so you don't get reversaled during a tech chase (is a 16 frame startup). |
Keep Disable in mind and don't be too predictable near Mewtwo. If used in the air, it knocks you back without stunning, and now has intangibility on frames 10-16, so can be used to beat out attacks if timed right. Also watch out if Mewtwo does a tech followed by down B, so you don't get reversaled during a tech chase (is a 16 frame startup). |
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If Mewtwo does side B off stage to turn itself around (with its back facing you), it means they'll do a rising bair to get on stage with. |
If Mewtwo does side B off stage to turn itself around (with its back facing you), it means they'll do a rising bair to get on stage with. |
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Confusion also combos after ~90%. DI out to avoid a Mewtwo d-throw followup. A lot of its other combos start with an upward attack and continues on with a rising double jump aerial. |
Confusion also combos after ~90%, potentially allowing for a f-air kill followup after ~110%. DI out to avoid a Mewtwo d-throw followup. A lot of its other combos start with an upward attack and continues on with a rising double jump aerial. |
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D-smash, aside from its shield safety, also has relatively low end lag, meaning it can be used as a bait. Mewtwo loves to use Teleport to escape the corner of a stage, so keep in mind. |
D-smash, aside from its shield safety, also has relatively low end lag, meaning it can be used as a bait. Mewtwo loves to use Teleport to escape the corner of a stage, so keep in mind. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Its d-smash and dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Its d-smash and dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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Respect its ledge getup attack range. |
Respect its ledge getup attack range. |
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Their u-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed geutp. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Brawler is the lightest of the Mii's and we easily outrange it, though note the intangibility on its u-smash |
Brawler is the lightest of the Mii's and we easily outrange it, though note the intangibility on its u-smash. |
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Its fair is 2 hits. |
Its fair is 2 hits. |
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Soaring axe kick (rising) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their smashes, Flashing Mach Punch, Onslaught (grounded or landing), and Burning Dropdick are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Brawler can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Although feint jump kick doesn’t bury like ZSS flip jump kick, still gotta tech when hit by it. |
Although feint jump kick doesn’t bury like ZSS flip jump kick, still gotta tech when hit by it. |
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Brawler's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while its f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback, and its d-smash & feint jump kick are punished by |
Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case. Brawler's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while its f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer/d-smash punishable with shield pushback, and its d-smash & feint jump kick are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air. If they whiff a counter throw nearby, skewer punish. |
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Brawler specials: Shot Put is -19 on shield up close. Flashing Mach Punch is -30 on shield, so can |
Brawler specials: Shot Put is -19 on shield up close. Flashing Mach Punch (~20 hits) is -30 on shield, so can f-smash in response. The rarely seen Burning Drop Kick is -30 on shield, while the common Cloud up B esque Soaring Axe Kick is -23 on shield (watch out for at ledge). Feint Jump is like ZSS Flip Jump, with the kick at the end being -27 on shield, so can punish if you react quick enough. |
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Every other special is too safe on shield mostly, so reset when it comes to them; also respect Exploding Side Kick (dodge it like you would Falcon Punch), Onslaught (dodge it too preferably, though can still shield it but reset after), Helicopter Kick & its leg intangibility (may be used as horizontal recovery), Suplex command grab (watch out for at ledge), Head-On Assault that's like Yoshi & Bowser down B which you want to dodge, and Counter Throw if they have those. |
Every other special is too safe on shield mostly, so reset when it comes to them; also respect Exploding Side Kick (dodge it like you would Falcon Punch), Onslaught (dodge it too preferably, though can still shield it but reset after), Helicopter Kick & its leg intangibility (may be used as horizontal recovery), Suplex command grab (watch out for at ledge), Head-On Assault that's like Yoshi & Bowser down B which you want to dodge, and Counter Throw if they have those. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Gunner multihits- jab 3 (2 hits), f-smash (7 hits), uair (7 hits) |
Gunner multihits- jab 3 (2 hits), f-smash (7 hits), uair (7 hits) |
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Gunner up smash hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 6 to 9 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Their f-smash and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before theirs. |
Our jab 1 comes out before theirs, so always use in close range. |
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Gunner's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and f-smash if you happen to shield up close is punished by our own. Its jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air, especially since Gunner's a floaty. |
Gunner's normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and f-smash if you happen to shield up close is punished by our own. Its jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair can be u-smash OoS punished if they're still in the air, especially since Gunner's a floaty. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Their smashes, Blurring Blade, Airborne Assault, Skyward Slash Dash, and Hero's Spin (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Swordfighter multihits- u-smash (2 hits), fair (3 hits), Blurring Blade (6 hits), Skyward Slash Dash (~6 hits) |
Swordfighter multihits- u-smash (2 hits), fair (3 hits), dair (4 hits), Blurring Blade (6 hits), Skyward Slash Dash (~6 hits) |
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Chakram (weak hit) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 7 frames of hitlag for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before theirs. |
Our jab 1 comes out before theirs, so always use in close range. |
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Swordfighter's normals besides d-tilt are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer punishable (shorthop skewer OoS specifically) with shield pushback. Its jab 3 & d-smash are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge GUA are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. If they whiff a blade counter nearby, skewer punish. |
Swordfighter's normals besides d-tilt are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash and u-smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. Its f-smash may also be skewer punishable (shorthop skewer OoS specifically) with shield pushback. Its jab 3 & d-smash are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge GUA are u-tilt punishable should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. If they whiff a blade counter nearby, skewer punish. |
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She can't |
She can't over-commit too much in neutral because any smash attack is punishable by our dash attack, side B, or f-smash after shielding. Her 2 frame on us is inconsistent with how it beats WB and in general Ridley can end her stock consistently with a neutral win or two. |
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Other than that, just mix up your approaches so she'll whiff her smash attacks and you can punish often. Her disadvantage is bad like our own and she has slow fall speed, making her prone to getting juggled ( |
Other than that, just mix up your approaches so she'll whiff her smash attacks and you can punish often. Her disadvantage is bad like our own and she has slow fall speed, making her prone to getting juggled (though remember her dair), so combo as much as you can once you start to get an opening. She has a tether recovery and as such will mainly try to recover vertically, but with her slow air speed, she's easy to gimp in addition to being vulnerable to CLS (crouch ledge slip) nair/fair before she pulls herself in with her tether, or if she tethers a little high, can jump plasma/SPR & drag down followed by jump release. Her ledge jump leaves her vulnerable too. On stages with platforms which you'll want to play her on when you get the chance, you can plasma her at times before she's in position to attack with arms. |
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Can also dash shield & shield jump/Double Shield Cancel fullhop to close the gap. If she does a tilt/smash while you're shielding, can jump OoS toward her before the 2nd hit comes out and punish. Dash shielding also makes her moves unsafely spaced. |
Can also dash shield & shield jump/Double Shield Cancel fullhop to close the gap. If she does a tilt/smash while you're shielding, can jump OoS toward her before the 2nd hit comes out and punish. Dash shielding also makes her moves unsafely spaced. |
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Line 2,394: | Line 2,701: | ||
Be aware of what arm she's using when doing an off stage edgeguard on her. Going above or below Ramram to edgeguard works and being observant in general to her disadvantage and pushing in instead of retreating & giving her more room to breathe. Don't get greedy though if she still has plenty resources to recover with. If you can't reliably edgeguard her yet, just stay on stage for a ledgetrap and do your best to not get grabbed (her b-throw kill & b-throw > dragon smash and all). Also watch out for ledge drop f-smash where she either goes from ledge to stage or regrabs ledge, and shield that. |
Be aware of what arm she's using when doing an off stage edgeguard on her. Going above or below Ramram to edgeguard works and being observant in general to her disadvantage and pushing in instead of retreating & giving her more room to breathe. Don't get greedy though if she still has plenty resources to recover with. If you can't reliably edgeguard her yet, just stay on stage for a ledgetrap and do your best to not get grabbed (her b-throw kill & b-throw > dragon smash and all). Also watch out for ledge drop f-smash where she either goes from ledge to stage or regrabs ledge, and shield that. |
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For more specific things to look out for, neutral will mostly a guess game about how to go through arms. Know that you can react to her throwing an arm: |
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In f-tilt animation, be aware of the moment where she puts her elbow back and then throws the arm. Be ready to shield the moment you see it. You want her to throw both arms on your shield. If she does, she cant do anything but jump or walk. This allows you the time to do a dash in roughly half a stage length, then immediately shield, react, and pressure mid range. If she whiffs too close, you can dash nair or dash attack too. |
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Mixups to be aware of in neutral, advantage, and disadvantage: |
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* She can throw an arm low and then high to cover jumps, but you can roll in to avoid the 2nd one and get closer. |
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* If she throws just one arm and wait, she then can’t catch fullhop, though only if he sends ramram out first. |
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* When she's getting off stage, edgeguard her if he already if far enough. Otherwise set up fireballs, but be sure to not position yourself on the same horizontal line to avoid arm reversals. |
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* When you're getting off stage, the only way you can avoid edgeguard is to recover as low as possible (pick maps with low blastzones). Save your jumps if possible and mixup your up B timing, that way she’ll struggle with dragon laser 2-frames. |
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* When being ledgetrapped, the only way you have to be afraid of getting your ledghang hit is when she's charging ramram or dragon’s f-smash (she can with f-tilt but the spacing is hard and obvious). |
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* If she starts charging f-smash, you can ledge jump airdodge but to avoid ramram, mixup with ledge neutral getup > shield to bait timing. Don’t try reversal options, it just doesn’t work. Also don't try airdodging to ledge which is equally unreliable in this matchup. |
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* At close range, she’ll likely try to d-tilt slide. There’s not much you can directly do if it cross up. Just remember to try and jab her at close range before she gets the chance. |
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Line 2,400: | Line 2,729: | ||
Remember she can still do up angle f-tilt like us, aside from jumping and moving left/right with it. Same with Dragon or grounded Ramram f-smash. |
Remember she can still do up angle f-tilt like us, aside from jumping and moving left/right with it. Same with Dragon or grounded Ramram f-smash. |
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Her dash attack hits our ledge hang. |
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Can get on ledge for i-frames against anti-edgeguards from her arms. |
Can get on ledge for i-frames against anti-edgeguards from her arms. |
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Line 2,410: | Line 2,741: | ||
* At various frames during her neutral & up B. |
* At various frames during her neutral & up B. |
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Her f-tilt (minus ramram), megawatt f-smash, u-smash, d-smash, and up B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers. The rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash are punished by Rid f-smash when shielded up close (the latter two also by shorthop skewer OoS with shield pushback), as are her f-tilt and f-smash variants. Her u-smash may even be skewer punishable with shield pushback. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
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Her gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, crossup dash attack, u-tilt, f-tilt variants, f-smash variants, u-smash, d-smash, landing dair, ledge getup attack, and such are also u-tilt punishable should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Her gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, crossup dash attack, u-tilt, f-tilt variants, f-smash variants, u-smash, d-smash, landing dair, ledge getup attack, and such are also u-tilt punishable should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Line 2,423: | Line 2,758: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (95-116%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (95-116%) |
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Credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips. |
Credit to smub for the edgeguarding tips, and major credit to Human on the specific neutral, advantage, and disadvantage things to look out for. |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 2,456: | Line 2,791: | ||
U-smash's strengths were already mentioned, and again, recovering low is the best option due to upward WB beating out dair and G&W not being able to easily get in position to up B, while making sure to swat him away with nair/fair if he tries to bair you, being ready to tech if they try to bair our low recovery. |
U-smash's strengths were already mentioned, and again, recovering low is the best option due to upward WB beating out dair and G&W not being able to easily get in position to up B, while making sure to swat him away with nair/fair if he tries to bair you, being ready to tech if they try to bair our low recovery. |
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G&W neutral B starts seeing lag with every 5 chef's |
G&W neutral B starts seeing lag with every 5 chef's. He can also angle chef. If they ledgetrap with it outside of ledge getup attack range, time your other ledge options. |
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D-throw is his combo throw that leads to nair's and uair's. Aside from up B being his main OoS, it combos into nair/uair if hit by it, but shouldn't happen if you properly space your tilts on his shield. The weakness with up B is that he can't double jump afterward which is why they dair often which you can anticipate & exploit. |
D-throw is his combo throw that leads to nair's and uair's. Aside from up B being his main OoS, it combos into nair/uair if hit by it, but shouldn't happen if you properly space your tilts on his shield. The weakness with up B is that he can't double jump afterward which is why they dair often which you can anticipate & exploit. |
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Line 2,472: | Line 2,807: | ||
G&W is quite good at edgeguarding our recovery due to bair/dair being strong disjointed moves and up B being a fast burst option that can hit us from below. Recovering low is the best option due to upward WB beating out dair and G&W not being able to easily get in position to up B. Make sure to swat him away with nair/fair if he tries to bair you. Be ready to tech if they try to bair our low recovery. Mix up your recovery depending on how the G&W likes to edgeguard. |
G&W is quite good at edgeguarding our recovery due to bair/dair being strong disjointed moves and up B being a fast burst option that can hit us from below. Recovering low is the best option due to upward WB beating out dair and G&W not being able to easily get in position to up B. Make sure to swat him away with nair/fair if he tries to bair you. Be ready to tech if they try to bair our low recovery. Mix up your recovery depending on how the G&W likes to edgeguard. |
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The worst part of the MU is easily being ledgetrapped. We have very little options to deal with chef ledgetrapping due to our size and mediocre neutral ledge getup/ledge roll. |
The worst part of the MU is easily being ledgetrapped. We have very little options to deal with chef ledgetrapping due to our size and mediocre neutral ledge getup/ledge roll. Again to note is that there’s a decent amount of lag for every 5 uses of chef that G&W uses. During that you can try to nair or jump past chef. Be very patient at ledge due to G&W being able to confirm a f-tilt off of chef. Our ledge hang avoids everything but chef. G&W d-smash/u-smash covers both neutral getup and ledge roll. Our get up attack is big enough to beat those two options out. |
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Despite G&W's ability to deal tons of damage during our disadvantage, he does have issues with consistently killing due to his lack of any consistent setup. If you play super careful you should be able to avoid a lot of his finishers. If he puts you in a tech situation, just be mindful of your tech option which he may cover with d-smash for a bury. |
Despite G&W's ability to deal tons of damage during our disadvantage, he does have issues with consistently killing due to his lack of any consistent setup. If you play super careful you should be able to avoid a lot of his finishers. If he puts you in a tech situation, just be mindful of your tech option which he may cover with d-smash for a bury. |
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Line 2,499: | Line 2,834: | ||
U-smash has full body invincibility on frames 21-25. Up B is invincible on frames 5-13. |
U-smash has full body invincibility on frames 21-25. Up B is invincible on frames 5-13. |
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Ridley's sour fair on shield has gaps which allows it to catch certain OoS options like G&W up B. Only go for if you think he'll up B OoS though, since sour fair is not safe on shield. |
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Dash attack will beat Mr. Game & Watch's shorthop if spaced. |
Dash attack will beat Mr. Game & Watch's shorthop if spaced. |
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Line 2,509: | Line 2,846: | ||
G&W multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), nair (4 hits), bair (3-4 hits) |
G&W multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), nair (4 hits), bair (3-4 hits) |
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Judge requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 29 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His d-tilt is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 2,583: | Line 2,926: | ||
Ness can stall with magnet and PK flash to slow his fall and give him time for mixups. Both can be challenged with fair if abused, so keep an eye for their habits. Magnet is much harder to punish since it’s faster and can be cancelled sooner, so you’ll likely have to punish what he does after. Flash is pretty reactable; be aware of the giant killing hitbox and go below and hit with fair. |
Ness can stall with magnet and PK flash to slow his fall and give him time for mixups. Both can be challenged with fair if abused, so keep an eye for their habits. Magnet is much harder to punish since it’s faster and can be cancelled sooner, so you’ll likely have to punish what he does after. Flash is pretty reactable; be aware of the giant killing hitbox and go below and hit with fair. |
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2-framing his recovery is also viable. Just be aware that the first 10 frames of his active up B are invincible and if he holds down for a second, he can grab ledge during these |
2-framing his recovery is also viable. Just be aware that the first 10 frames of his active up B are invincible and if he holds down for a second, he can grab ledge during these invulnerability frames and bypass his 2-frame (similar to Ridley, expect completely invincible). |
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For juggling, Ness is a |
For juggling, Ness is a slowfaller, so by design his landing is harder than most. Double jump is slow but goes really high, be aware that Ness can moon jump away/over you if you let him. Since his airdodge goes super far, it can be hard to chase at times. He can fake going to a lower platform, then airdodge to top platform. |
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Ness lacks great aerials to land with. Dair is slow and not great and fair is unsafe. Bair is his best for landing, safe but slowish in startup. Ness can also use PK Fire to land. Keep this in mind, especially near platforms where it can be landed with and be safe. |
Ness lacks great aerials to land with. Dair is slow and not great and fair is unsafe. Bair is his best for landing, safe but slowish in startup. Ness can also use PK Fire to land. Keep this in mind, especially near platforms where it can be landed with and be safe. |
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Line 2,599: | Line 2,942: | ||
Ness dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
Ness dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. |
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We avoid his fair from ledge by crouching. Otherwise with Ness fair, can spot-dodge the 2nd hit onward to make the full move whiff, and like any aerial, Ness fair is less safe when used rising (-15), so we can punish a rising fair final hit crossup with up-smash. |
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We avoid his fair from ledge by crouching. |
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Instead of doing an OoS option on the 2nd hit of Ness dash attack, if you shield drop instead, the final hit will whiff due to intangibility on Ridley's tail. It doesn't work when fully spaced though (that said, can nair OoS a spaced dash attack to make the final hit whiff), but when the shield drop method does work, you can get a guaranteed grab or nair punish unlike shield grab or nair OoS in this instance, as well as being able to use any tilt move. There's also parrying the multi-hits of dash attack to make punishing it a little easier. |
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Ness multihits- DA (3 hits), fair (4 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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SDI is still the best way of getting out of PK Fire fast, with either mash or flick SDI being sufficient, but dash walk SDI can also work. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ness multihits- Dash attack (3 hits), fair (4 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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Ness's normals besides d-tilt and dash attack are at least punished by nair OoS, while his u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. His dash attack will cross you up a bit when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly. His landing aerials besides maybe fair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK Flash is also safe on shield, while his other three specials are at least punished by nair OoS when shielded up close. |
Ness's normals besides d-tilt and dash attack are at least punished by nair OoS, while his u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS. His dash attack will cross you up a bit when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly. His landing aerials besides maybe fair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK Flash is also safe on shield, while his other three specials are at least punished by nair OoS when shielded up close. |
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Line 2,614: | Line 2,965: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (90-100%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (90-100%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info, and credit to Kyoki on the shield drop against Ness dash attack bit as well as the other parts on dealing with Ness fair. |
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Plasma armor can help against Ness’s recovery hitbox by charging neutral B off stage, and then you can freely dunk him. It requires stuffing his jump and sending him far out though. |
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https://x.com/acroraptor/status/1848005177086713931?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 2,651: | Line 3,005: | ||
Olimar multihits- u-tilt (6 hits), dash attack (2 hits), nair (5 hits) |
Olimar multihits- u-tilt (6 hits), dash attack (2 hits), nair (5 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His fair, bair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, and some Pikmin smashes (see UFD for which) are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, but his other normals are too safe. His landing fair & bair are also too safe shield, so reset. His landing nair we punish with our own OoS though, while his dair we can u-smash since he's floaty. His DA is shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his ledge getup attack (-27) is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
His u-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, and some Pikmin smashes (see UFD for which) are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, but his other normals are too safe. His landing fair & bair are also too safe shield, so reset. His landing nair we punish with our own OoS though, while his dair we can u-smash since he's floaty. His DA is shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his ledge getup attack (-27) is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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Line 2,695: | Line 3,055: | ||
* 1 f-smash |
* 1 f-smash |
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* 1 d-smash |
* 1 d-smash |
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* 1 u-smash (with your back turned against it) |
* 1 u-smash (with your back turned against it which can also hit Pac standing on it) |
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* nair x2 |
* nair x2 |
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* fair x2 |
* fair x2 |
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Line 2,703: | Line 3,063: | ||
* Plasma Breath, half charged |
* Plasma Breath, half charged |
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* 1 forward or down angle Wing Blitz |
* 1 forward or down angle Wing Blitz |
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If Pac's standing behind hydrant and shielding, any of our moves that one-shot hydrant will make hydrant hit him via shield poking. |
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Also be aware of what angle the moves send the hydrant since Pac has punish options when his opponent destroys it. Try to send it at an angle that hits him in the process. |
Also be aware of what angle the moves send the hydrant since Pac has punish options when his opponent destroys it. Try to send it at an angle that hits him in the process. |
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===== Hydrant ===== |
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Aside from what was already covered on hydrant above, |
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* Angles closer to 90° = Hydrant moves less horizontally and bounces up and down, controls space and forces Pac Man to act |
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* Angles closer to 180° = Hydrant moves more horizontally, ideal for hitting offstage or on platforms |
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The stronger the move hit with, the faster hydrant flies. |
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However, you do not always want to hit hydrant with strong committal moves as it can leave you wide open to be punished, especially if Pac Man is close. Safer moves that are disjointed like d-tilts can launch hydrant closer to the 90° angle, letting you control space and cover your approach. |
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Hydrant has a total of 15.6% health in 1v1. |
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===== Ledgetrapping & edgeguarding ===== |
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Though he has stubby aerials, Pac Man can do fair from ledge and can combo with this, or can usually cover his getup with throwing Galaxian (leads to a huge damage combo) or Bell (which goes through stage from below). |
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Pac Man getup options are also universally faster frame wise compared to most of the cast, so if you're trying to grab a neutral getup you need to act slightly earlier than normal. |
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Dashing back then doing a fullhop bair may work against aggressive ledge jump options. Pac Man can easily swing twice due to fast frame data, so you may be able to guarantee a trade if he presses a button a 2nd time. |
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Pac-Man is difficult to edgeguard due to the variety of resources they have, though if you can force them in a situation where they are forced to up B, descend on the trampoline by the end of the first rebound, but make sure to not get hit directly by Pac Man bouncing up. There's the standard setup of airdodging and jumping on the trampoline once and then there's the advanced version in which you airdodge down after jumping once to jump on it again. |
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While you can hit Pac Man during the startup of side B before he consumes the pellets, he can mixup by simply not holding the charge long. Weigh your risk-reward ratio and act accordingly. |
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2-framing Pac Man is possible, but he has stalling with hydrant which can make it difficult. |
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===== Fruits ===== |
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Aside from what was already covered on fruits, you cannot recatch one that has already been thrown once. There are different ways to catch the different fruits. |
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Fruit gets thrown > hits your shield > OoS aerial, or you can do a jump neutral airdodge. |
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It's safer to respect Galaxian, as it's one of the harder and unreliable ones to catch. You may potentially take 60% for missing it. |
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Pac Man cannot generate another fruit if you're holding on to it. |
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===== Neutral ===== |
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Hit hydrant with low committal hits that don't send it flying far, as this controls space. Most hits challenging hydrant from above will invalidate its hitbox as it falls. |
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Be ready for hydrant when juggling Pac Man; you could either drift away or delay a uair. |
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With how safe his dash attack is on shield (-3), don't try to punish it directly but instead the option after. You can parry the last hit and punish with a grab or maybe rising aerial. |
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Do not spotdodge since his f-smash and grab easily cover this; jump away or do any other mixup instead. |
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If hydrant is already active, Pac Man has poor landing options besides airdodge, as his aerials are stubby along with him being floaty. |
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Fadeback tilts or rising aerials may work for catching an approaching Pac Man, especially if disjointed. |
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Try not to give Pac Man too much space where he can do setups. Play around our mid range where he is uncomfortable enough to not setup and in a position where he feels like he needs to act. Move grounded more in general and not jump over hydrant, and instead just hit it. Jumping over it easily gets you anti-aired, as he has fast buttons. |
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His rising fair is not safe and with quick reaction can be up smashed, though be aware he can do a nair or double jump hydrant as a timing mixup. Can either hold shield and react to him not doing the nair and get out, or you could shield the nair since he'll be doing it high, making it similarly unsafe to rising fair. |
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Pac Man has a lot of quick mash buttons that are safe and lead to one another. The best neutral you can do is to not interact directly but instead playing around our mid range and calling out options which is easier with disjoints. |
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Playing around our mid range where you can threaten him with an attack and cancelling his fruit charge/setups can allow you to bait & punish. The more ambiguous you can be with your movement and approaches, the better as you can keep them guessing. Use the knowledge you gather out of the player habits and use it against them. |
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Camp under platforms if he has Bell. For that matter, always go to a stage with platforms since standing under one messes up some of his bnb combos and Bell confirms. If he has Bell, he'll have to throw it right next to you for it to hit. If he has Galaxian, it will hit the platform when doing the circle and stop any combo extensions. Plus, platforms protect you from hydrant. On that note, you can deal with Pac Man's who in the air like to do Hydrant > dair by shielding the hydrant under platform and then doing up smash OoS. It will hit the hydrant and also Pac Man. |
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===== Setups and gimmicks ===== |
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Fruit gun: A setup where Pac Man throws fruit at hydrant at a specific timing and sends the fruit flying towards you at a very high speed. Watch the hydrant timings and be prepared. |
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Hydrant shoots water twice every 2 seconds and windbox is active for 1 second. The upwards one is only active if someone stands on it. |
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Hydrant enhanced roll: If Pac Man runs into the hydrant and rolls back he can roll a huge distance, about half the stage distance. |
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Trampoline at ledge: Pac Man sets up a trampoline at the ledge, leaving it on red. If you touch this, you go into freefall and die. Ideally, you could drop down and do an aerial or stall, but each comes with its own risks. Jumping, neutral getup, and getup attack will send you into freefall. Roll sends you into freefall as well, so shouldn't be relied on either. Pac Man can also set the trampoline up and stand on the side platform above and charge f-smash, so when you do an option, the trampoline sends you up and they kill you. If they put a trampoline at the ledge while you're grabbing it, don't do anything; wait for the trampoline to disappear. |
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Trampoline in disadvantage: Trampoline spawns frame 1 and is intractable at frame 10 (Pac Man's up B startup is frame 4). This can mess up your advantage state, so try not to overextend on combos and if you're aware of your own combos, you could bait this out. |
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Line 2,710: | Line 3,145: | ||
Pac has intangibility on u-tilt. |
Pac has intangibility on u-tilt. |
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While Pac's dash attack is too safe on shield to be punished at all, you can at least fullhop OoS in between hits, creating a neutral reset. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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Use retreating nair to get away from Pac grabs and catching fruits more like OoS. |
Use retreating nair to get away from Pac grabs and catching fruits more, like OoS. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Pac's normals besides u-tilt & 4-hit dash attack are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while d-smash when shielded close is punished by Rid f-smash. Pac f-smash & ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset. Side B is punished on shield by f/d-smash. His jab 3, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Pac's normals besides u-tilt & 4-hit dash attack are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while d-smash when shielded close is punished by Rid f-smash. Pac f-smash & ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Its landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset. Side B is punished on shield by f/d-smash. His jab 3, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Pac-Man item labbing with Ridley- |
Pac-Man item labbing with Ridley- |
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https://x.com/Nagare_K1/status/1227470728615931905 |
https://x.com/Nagare_K1/status/1227470728615931905 |
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Major credit to Hyuchurn on additional info for hydrant and fruits, as well as the specifics on ledgetrapping & edgeguarding, neutral, and Pac Man's gimmick setups. Also credit to Paco on stage platform specifics against Pac Man and additional info on the trampoline at ledge setup & how you can use trampoline against Pac Man when edgeguarding. |
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You want to play very grounded when she goes aerial, and go aerial when she's very grounded. |
You want to play very grounded when she goes aerial, and go aerial when she's very grounded. |
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If they kill you first, you can try to get back at them with backdash f-smash since they’ll be throwing out nair's. |
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In neutral, dash shield is not recommended with how good her main aerials are. F-tilt and nair should be your main go to's. You can nair autocancel from a distance that equals about two rolls in distance, so not with the goal of hitting her. The goal is to make her come closer to you, and then punish. Doing a lot of nair will, in the mind of the Palutena player, prevent her from jumping. |
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As far as disadvantage, getting off ledge is the worst spot to be in against Palutena. Being juggled sucks too since you can die early from uair, but you can make them commit by recover high and you still have a different timing or drift mixup. Do what you're comfortable with. |
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If you're getting edgeguarded, try your best to not recover horizontally, make good use of airdodge at different timings to avoid d-tilt. If you have to up B, aim for the wall and be ready to tech while DI down the counter to die later as usual. |
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Don't drop ledge too much against Palutena while at high %. Just because she jumps a lot in ledgetrap mode (fishing for her fair or bair) doesn't mean you can beat her with your ledge drop aerials; mostly when you're lucky. Is advised to ledge jump the moment you see her start to land. You can also neutral getup, but be careful since from 90 to 150%, her d-throw bair kill confirm tends to be true regardless of your DI. It's important not to drop ledge against Palutena if you're at high %. |
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Also don't forget about her d-tilt in ledgetrap mode. If you think she'll do a d-tilt, do a ledge getup attack. Reminder that right after grabbing the ledge, turn the stick in the opposite direction in order to DI out her d-tilt. |
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Do not push hard your advantage. Overextending really sucks against her since she'll hit you harder and can reverse you easily. Fact is that (with perhaps the exception of corner situations) you'll kill her more by winning neutral than pushing your advantage. |
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When she's in disadvantage, be ready to cover platform cancel since this is her most rewarding option (don't try anything if your placement isn't correct, too risky). Otherwise, try f-tilt 2 frames or fireballs to deal some damage. Once you hit one or two 2-frames, they will start teleport on stage and can be easily punish if you're ready for it. |
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Ban FD against her, as it allows her to chain aerial combos across the stage without a platform to interrupt. |
Ban FD against her, as it allows her to chain aerial combos across the stage without a platform to interrupt. |
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Palu multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), u-tilt (6 hits), nair (7 hits), uair (6 hits, DI one way and then the other) |
Palu multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), u-tilt (6 hits), nair (7 hits), uair (6 hits, DI one way and then the other), side B (7 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Her f-smash, d-smash, fair, bair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so remember if up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out before hers, so remember if up close. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (89-95%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (89-95%) |
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Major credit to smub and the collective Ridcord for the tips on neutral. |
Major credit to smub and the collective Ridcord for the tips on neutral. Also credit to Human for the more specific parts about managing advantage and disadvantage, and credit to Mezcaul for more on neutral and disadvantage. |
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Example of how we can body block Palu on platforms when she's teleport cancelling- |
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https://x.com/zurassb/status/1823833598597767237?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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Respect the float ability; can hover for ~2.5 seconds, allowing them to throw out aerials near the ground. Can also cancel a jump with float, cancel float as soon as it starts, and do aerials without throwing a turnip. The |
Respect the float ability; can hover for ~2.5 seconds, allowing them to throw out aerials near the ground. Can also cancel a jump with float, cancel float as soon as it starts, and do aerials without throwing a turnip. The shorthop aerial multiplier doesn't apply to float since it counts as a fullhop. |
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Don't sit in shield since they can wait to shield poke, nor jump nearby which can be stuffed out. Do spaced anti-airs but don't mistime, or either move away & plasma some or nair OoS (tho watch out for her shield pressure options like retreating dair from a float). There's also tapping shield to keep her guessing. |
Don't sit in shield since they can wait to shield poke, nor jump nearby which can be stuffed out. Do spaced anti-airs but don't mistime, or either move away & plasma some or nair OoS (tho watch out for her shield pressure options like retreating dair from a float). There's also tapping shield to keep her guessing. |
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Her d-throw combos well and her b-throw can kill, but by DI'ing the way she's facing during d-throw can mix up her followups. |
Her d-throw combos well and her b-throw can kill, but by DI'ing the way she's facing during d-throw can mix up her followups. |
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Also watch out for f-air as a potential kill move, and her 4-hit dair leads into confirms, |
Also watch out for f-air as a potential kill move, and her 4-hit dair leads into confirms, though can DI away to avoid those. |
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Her combo starters in general are dair, safe d-tilt, turnips, and d-throw. |
Her combo starters in general are dair, safe d-tilt, turnips, and d-throw. |
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Although all her landing aerials are too safe on shield, her dair will trade at best and lose the % war. |
Although all her landing aerials are too safe on shield, her dair will trade at best and lose the % war. |
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Her fair and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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If she misses a Toad counter nearby, whiff punish. Her jab 2, f-tilt, u/d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-28) are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at kill confirm %. |
If she misses a Toad counter nearby, whiff punish. Her jab 2, f-tilt, u/d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-28) are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at kill confirm %. |
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Pichu d-tilt combos into mostly everything and is unpunishable on block, so watch out and mix up your options. Its f-tilt is guaranteed to cause tripping. Other than that, is about maintaining stage control, and if Pichu gets middle stage, can kill you with up throw > Thunder. Mixup your DI there. |
Pichu d-tilt combos into mostly everything and is unpunishable on block, so watch out and mix up your options. Its f-tilt is guaranteed to cause tripping. Other than that, is about maintaining stage control, and if Pichu gets middle stage, can kill you with up throw > Thunder. Mixup your DI there. |
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Note that Pichu's FAF (first actionable frame) on t-jolt is higher than the amount of frames on their fullhop, so if they fullhop, then you know they can't act until after they're grounded already. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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T-jolt causes tumble at 92%. |
T-jolt causes tumble at 92%. Also remember Pichu's t-jolt travels faster than Pikachu's along with being a bit more versatile. |
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Multihits: f-smash (6 hits), d-smash (5 hits), fair (4 hits), bair (6 hits), dair (2 hits), f-throw (5 hits) |
Multihits: f-smash (6 hits), d-smash (5 hits), fair (4 hits), bair (6 hits), dair (2 hits), f-throw (5 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Pichu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Dair & t-jolt hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
Dair & t-jolt hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there. |
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His side B is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Pichu can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Pichu's normals besides u-tilt & d-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS. Its landing aerials besides bair & dair are too safe on shield though, so reset. Point-blank T-jolt is pretty OoS punishable (-29/30), as is Thunder (-27). |
Pichu's normals besides u-tilt & d-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS. Its landing aerials besides bair & dair are too safe on shield though, so reset. Point-blank T-jolt is pretty OoS punishable (-29/30), as is Thunder (-27). |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (71-80%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (71-80%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info, and to Hyrchurn on pointing out the frames with t-jolt and Pichu's fullhop. |
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DI/SDI away from Pika's combos. With his nair loops, can also SDI up & in to get behind him. Same with bair loops, and then SDI away. |
DI/SDI away from Pika's combos. With his nair loops, can also SDI up & in to get behind him. Same with bair loops (i.e. the bair train off stage), and then SDI away. If he grabs you by the ledge at mid %, always DI in or he will spike you with dair. |
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Respect his shield pressure, with multi-hits like bair, d-smash, or up B. Don't shield too obviously against t-jolt or you'll get grabbed, and his u-throw can kill (only shield if he isn't approaching with the jolt). Attack jolt and him at the same time with aerials + up angle f-tilt like when he jumps with it, or do empty hops over them first, conditioning him to shorthop aerial which you can counter with your own. His neutral otherwise consists of rising fair/bair. Also watch out for f-smash if cornered when jumping over jolt. |
Respect his shield pressure, with multi-hits like bair, d-smash, or up B. Don't shield too obviously against t-jolt or you'll get grabbed, and his u-throw can kill (only shield if he isn't approaching with the jolt). Attack jolt and him at the same time with aerials + up angle f-tilt like when he jumps with it, or do empty hops over them first, conditioning him to shorthop aerial which you can counter with your own. His neutral otherwise consists of rising fair/bair. Also watch out for f-smash if cornered when jumping over jolt. |
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He's fairly floaty and has short attack reach, so stick to your mid range game. If he uses t-jolt from disadvantage to try and land, wait it out and then fullhop aerial him, or hit both simultaneously if you preemptively jump. Also remember his up B. |
He's fairly floaty and has short attack reach, so stick to your mid range game. If he uses t-jolt from disadvantage to try and land, wait it out and then fullhop aerial him, or hit both simultaneously if you preemptively jump. Also remember his up B. |
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Exploit his recovery; if he recovers low, then go where you expect him to up B and knock him back, or just plasma to be safe which also stops his side B. Be careful about standing near ledge against him due to thundering below you or using fair from ledge (plasma beats jolt here though) |
Exploit his recovery; if he recovers low, then go where you expect him to up B and knock him back, or just plasma to be safe which also stops his side B. Be careful about standing near ledge against him due to thundering below you or using fair from ledge (plasma beats jolt here though). |
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Likewise, watch out for his f-smash & shorthop fair ledgetrapping. Pika's get a lot of kills out of this due to their oppressive ledgetrapping with t-jolt forcing you to pick an option from ledge. The counterplay is don’t do anything until you get a feel for what your opponent is looking for and you see a way out. You can get hit by the t-jolt, it doesn't matter. It does like 2% which is nothing compared to losing your stock to f-smash. Just be patient, regrab ledge, look at your opponent and wait for your opportunity. If they land too close you can time a getup attack or if they go for a fair, you can time a roll to sneak away or sneak an SPR if they shield expecting a getup attack. |
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If he’s spamming T-jolt in the air when edgeguarding while camping at ledge, back angle Wing Blitz can counter this and hit him. |
If he’s spamming T-jolt in the air when edgeguarding while camping at ledge, back angle Wing Blitz can counter this and hit him. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Misc: T-jolt doesn't really cause tumble at high % like Pichu's does. |
Misc: T-jolt doesn't really cause tumble at high % like Pichu's does. Pika's is also slower and a bit easier to react to, which might make Rid d-smash hopping over jolt during ledgetrap more consistent. |
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Pika is invulnerable during frames 34-43 of thunder if it hits you. |
Pika is invulnerable during frames 34-43 of thunder if it hits you. |
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DI Pika's dash attack the same way you would Cloud's and such; down & in near ledge, DI down at center stage, and down & away from far side. |
DI Pika's dash attack the same way you would Cloud's and such; down & in near ledge, DI down at center stage, and down & away from far side. |
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* For grab > thunder, Pikachu has two routes in which he can kill you based off your DI. With DI in, he can kill you off up throw > thunder from roughly 90% to 140%. With no DI or DI out, he can kill you off d-throw > thunder, which takes some execution from roughly 90% to 120%. Thus, the counterplay is to DI out and jump away when the d-throw combo doesn't connect and DI in when d-throw does combo because they’ll always go for that. Eventually, it becomes a 50/50 of guessing which DI you’ll do. |
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Our d-smash is good for hopping over and punishing overly aggressive attacks from Pika. |
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Our d-smash is good for hopping over and punishing overly aggressive attacks from Pika. Max spaced d-smash may be preferred depending on the range they typically play. |
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D-smash and bair are 6 hits, so shield as long accordingly before potentially punishing. His nair is 4 hits & fair is 6 hits, while dair is 2 hits; f-throw is 5 hits. |
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His d-smash and bair are 6 hits, so shield as long accordingly before potentially punishing. His nair is 4 hits & fair is 6 hits, while dair is 2 hits; f-throw is 5 hits. |
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Pikachu's jab requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same with Pika's fair, except it has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
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His d-smash, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Try to wait for him to land first since his landing animations can make him pancake under a usual timed u-tilt. |
Try to wait for him to land first since his landing animations can make him pancake under a usual timed u-tilt. |
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Major credit to Paco on the grab > thunder routes and how to DI them, and the specifics on getting around Pika's f-smash ledgetrapping. |
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Ptooie has 10% armor; damage based armor but on a projectile. |
Ptooie has 10% armor; damage based armor but on a projectile. |
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Plant up B hits require 3 or more SDI inputs, each of which have 3 or so hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Respect Plant's ledge getup attack range. |
Respect Plant's ledge getup attack range. |
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His dash attack, f-smash, u-smash, fair, and bair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Plant f-tilt 1, u-tilt, u-smash, f-smash, uair, and footstooled attack have head intangibility, as well as Long-Stem Strike after it comes out (15% armor before it comes out and 12% after it comes out). |
Plant f-tilt 1, u-tilt, u-smash, f-smash, uair, and footstooled attack have head intangibility, as well as Long-Stem Strike after it comes out (15% armor before it comes out and 12% after it comes out). |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Pit multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (3 hits), nair (8 hits), fair (3 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
Pit multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (3 hits), nair (8 hits), fair (3 hits), uair (5 hits, hold DI to the left and then right & vice-versa to survive longer) |
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Pit has a total of 4 jumps, with 3 midair jumps. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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That said, the most important thing is to tech when they start f-tilting at higher percent, as jablock > f-smash is their earliest form of killing. Also try to DI away when being combo'd at low % and hold on to your jumps. Once he gets you off stage is when they switch to Ivysaur and will either try to edgeguard you with an aerial like dair, or ledgetrap with f-smash. |
That said, the most important thing is to tech when they start f-tilting at higher percent, as jablock > f-smash is their earliest form of killing. Also try to DI away when being combo'd at low % and hold on to your jumps. Once he gets you off stage is when they switch to Ivysaur and will either try to edgeguard you with an aerial like dair, or ledgetrap with f-smash. |
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His u-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ivy multihits- f-tilt (~5 hits), nair (8 hits), bair (2 hits), neutral B (~5 hits but does twice as much when B is held longer) |
Ivy multihits- f-tilt (~5 hits), nair (8 hits), bair (2 hits), neutral B (~5 hits but does twice as much when B is held longer) |
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Ivy nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His f-smash, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Aside from our jab 1 starting faster than Ivysaur's, their rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Its other normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash when shielded up close is punished by our own as well as shorthop skewer OoS. Ivy's DA, d-smash, and ledge GUA (-25) are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its landing aerials besides nair are too safe on shield though, so reset there, and watch out for dair which destroys us offstage and uair which covers most landing options. Its point-blank neutral B is shield punishable with f-smash & shorthop skewer OoS, and point-blank razor leaf is OoS aerial/grab punished. Its jab 2/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, point-blank neutral B & up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Aside from our jab 1 starting faster than Ivysaur's, their rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Its other normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while f-smash when shielded up close is punished by our own as well as shorthop skewer OoS. Ivy's DA, d-smash, and ledge GUA (-25) are punished by SH SPR OoS. Its landing aerials besides nair are too safe on shield though, so reset there, and watch out for dair which destroys us offstage and uair which covers most landing options. Its point-blank neutral B is shield punishable with f-smash & shorthop skewer OoS, and point-blank razor leaf is OoS aerial/grab punished. Its jab 2/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt, d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, point-blank neutral B & up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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===== Charizard ===== |
===== Charizard ===== |
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Flare Blitz has 15% damage worth of armor, but it's no problem for Wing Blitz with how much damage it typically deals. |
Flare Blitz has 15% damage worth of armor, but it's no problem for Wing Blitz with how much damage it typically deals. Watch how he may use Flare Blitz in disadvantage and dash shield when approaching in which case. |
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Zard’s f-smash and uair have intangibility on the head, and his one-way up B has super armor during the first few frames, so if you're gonna spike him, wait to do so after. |
Zard’s f-smash and uair have intangibility on the head, and his one-way up B has super armor during the first few frames, so if you're gonna spike him, wait to do so after. |
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His f-smash, d-smash, fair, and Flare Blitz are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Respect Zard's grab range and ledge getup attack range. |
Respect Zard's grab range and ledge getup attack range. |
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When shielding Zard side B, only move/shorthop slightly forward and wait till he's closer to falling on ground for a skewer punish. Shielding said side B may push him on a platform on plat stages; avoid challenging it with plasma. Also, his u-smash is 2 hits. |
When shielding Zard side B, only move/shorthop slightly forward and wait till he's closer to falling on ground for a skewer punish. Shielding said side B may push him on a platform on plat stages; can also Wing Blitz forward after shielding it, but avoid challenging it with plasma. Also, his u-smash is 2 hits. |
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Charizard's normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while f-smash and d-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f/d-smash (or u-smash OoS) and maybe shortop skewer OoS punishable as well depending on shield pushback. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its fair, bair, and dair are punished by our aerials, grab, and u-smash OoS, but Zard's landing nair and uair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Flamethrower I would go for a neutral reset on when shielding, but Flare Blitz is punishable on shield with whatever (given that your shield won't break) when they're on stage and they flop to the ground, but when they’re falling back off you don’t really have time to chase them low. They shouldn't be trying to hit you with it otherwise outside of tech chases. |
Charizard's normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while f-smash and d-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f/d-smash (or u-smash OoS) and maybe shortop skewer OoS punishable as well depending on shield pushback. Its jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should it be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Its fair, bair, and dair are punished by our aerials, grab, and u-smash OoS, but Zard's landing nair and uair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Flamethrower I would go for a neutral reset on when shielding, but Flare Blitz is punishable on shield with whatever (given that your shield won't break) when they're on stage and they flop to the ground, but when they’re falling back off you don’t really have time to chase them low. They shouldn't be trying to hit you with it otherwise outside of tech chases. |
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===== Overall ===== |
===== Overall ===== |
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Someone playing the Aegis will tend to use Mythra more to get quick damage on you, and switch back to Pyra at some point to finish off your stock. Adjust accordingly. |
Someone playing the Aegis will tend to use Mythra more to get quick damage on you, and switch back to Pyra at some point to finish off your stock. Adjust accordingly. |
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Prominence Revolt up B's also pretty whiff punishable (even with Skewer) as well as unsafe on shield. Just remember she has it when above you and aside from recovering, can use it as an OoS or ledge getup option, as a ledgetrap move, and hits us under platforms, so shield it there too. |
Prominence Revolt up B's also pretty whiff punishable (even with Skewer) as well as unsafe on shield. Just remember she has it when above you and aside from recovering, can use it as an OoS or ledge getup option, as a ledgetrap move, and hits us under platforms, so shield it there too. |
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Her neutral B Flame Nova is also slow enough that you can parry and punish with Skewer |
Her neutral B Flame Nova is also slow enough that you can parry and punish with Skewer, though would not try to shield it entirely with how much shield damage it does. When you shield the first hit, you can just jump OoS and punish with whatever. Can also shield three of the hits and spotdodge if you’re not too close. She may try to use her neutral B as an off-stage edgeguard as well, so pay attention if she goes off as you’re recovering and hit her first like with a nair or uair. She may also use neutral B as a landing mixup or from a ledgehop, so get away from her if you detect it there. |
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Also, we can dodge Blazing End with u-smash and d-smash if timed right. The latter helps like if she does side B after a ledgehop, allowing you to avoid it and hit her in the process. |
Also, we can dodge Blazing End with u-smash and d-smash if timed right. The latter helps like if she does side B after a ledgehop, allowing you to avoid it and hit her in the process. |
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* Another thing about her side B |
* Another thing about her side B, be wary about approaching her with a burst option like sliding d-tilt unless it’s to maybe get under a shorthop side B, since her grounded side B will still stuff out any overzealous attempts to approach period. Likewise if she gets you in a tech chase, be wary about doing a techroll toward her if further away since that's another easy side B for her. |
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* Mainly DI down when hit by her side B. It doesn’t actually kill until late % regardless. |
* Mainly DI down when hit by her side B. It doesn’t actually kill until late % regardless. |
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We can punish Pyra f-tilt with d-tilt OoS after they f-tilt your shield 2 times. |
We can punish Pyra f-tilt with d-tilt OoS after they f-tilt your shield 2 times. |
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Only her dair and blazing end can hit us at ledge, the former of which can be teched. |
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Pyra has worse fastest OoS options than us (in frames). |
Pyra has worse fastest OoS options than us (in frames). |
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Her dash attack, f-smash, u-smash, nair, fair, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (91-97%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (91-97%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (92-109%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (92-109%) |
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Major credit to Sapphire on how we can punish Pyra's f-tilt, and finding out that we can tech her dair at ledge. |
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Her neutral B Lightning Buster is 4 or 5 fits, though has less end lag to punish but still shield it. It has intangibility on release, so she may use it as a landing mixup or worse a potential edgeguard. We can dash attack it on whiff though thankfully. |
Her neutral B Lightning Buster is 4 or 5 fits, though has less end lag to punish but still shield it. It has intangibility on release, so she may use it as a landing mixup or worse a potential edgeguard. We can dash attack it on whiff though thankfully. |
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Throwing out a well timed and placed SPR or grab seems to be Ridley’s answer to Mythra’s Foresight ability. If she dodges the first hit of our f-air, the 2nd or 3rd can still hit her even during Foresight. Be careful of Foresight regardless though, lest you get punished easily. Try to shield or jab if caught. Foresight also makes it harder to apply platform pressure to her when she can roll/spot dodge to avoid a move while on plat or airdodge a uair, aside from how quick she can move or jump off it with her speed. Platform juggling her is not impossible though still. |
Throwing out a well timed and placed SPR or grab seems to be Ridley’s answer to Mythra’s Foresight ability. If she dodges the first hit of our f-air, the 2nd or 3rd can still hit her even during Foresight. Likewise, if she dodges one fireball, the other fireballs after will still hit her if you charged any plasma at all. Be careful of Foresight regardless though, lest you get punished easily. Try to shield or jab if caught. Foresight also makes it harder to apply platform pressure to her when she can roll/spot dodge to avoid a move while on plat or airdodge a uair, aside from how quick she can move or jump off it with her speed. Platform juggling her is not impossible though still. |
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Other than that, if you go off stage to edgeguard her like with an aerial, just be ready to tech from the side of stage when she does the 2nd part of her up B, so you don't get gimped or stage spiked. If she uses her up B to edgeguard you, try to recover high occasionally. If you avoid her up B on stage, punish her landing. |
Other than that, if you go off stage to edgeguard her like with an aerial, just be ready to tech from the side of stage when she does the 2nd part of her up B, so you don't get gimped or stage spiked. If she uses her up B to edgeguard you, try to recover high occasionally. If you avoid her up B on stage, punish her landing. |
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Another reason it's advised to block more against Mythra than usual is because getting hit by her dash attack at most percents is worse than getting grabbed. A well timed spotdodge beats both but will lose to her tilts. Unless you have a read, would treat any landing aerials the same way, except nair; so defensive option after blocking nair (mainly jump OoS) and if it's any other aerial, just delay the defensive option until after her next move. You pretty much want her to use grab more since you can actually abuse that with spotdodge and stuff or DI/jump away if grabbed. Obviously none of this is ideal, but is just what we have to work with. |
Another reason it's advised to block more against Mythra than usual is because getting hit by her dash attack at most percents is worse than getting grabbed. A well timed spotdodge beats both but will lose to her tilts. Unless you have a read, would treat any landing aerials the same way, except nair; so defensive option after blocking nair (mainly jump OoS) and if it's any other aerial, just delay the defensive option until after her next move. You pretty much want her to use grab more since you can actually abuse that with spotdodge and stuff or DI/jump away if grabbed. Obviously none of this is ideal, but is just what we have to work with. |
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Another thing about Foresight, if she dodges one fireball, the other fireballs after will still hit her if you charged any plasma at all. |
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Other Mythra multihits- u-smash (5 hits), side B (6 hits) |
Other Mythra multihits- u-smash (5 hits), side B (6 hits) |
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Her dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid it. |
Her dair can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid it. |
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Her side B is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. Also, if she uses side B off stage near ledge, our ledge jump dair can hit her; even if it doesn't spike with the sweetspot, still gives good advantage. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Mythra's directional airdodge also travels a bit further than most of the cast (barring only Ness and Lucas), so respect it when otherwise edgeguarding her. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Mythra's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals besides spaced d-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS |
Mythra's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals besides spaced d-tilt, spaced f-tilt, and the furthest spaced u-tilt are at least punished by nair OoS, and f-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. |
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Her gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Otherwise just remember Photon Edge is shield punishable with whatever after she crosses up your shield or has to land in freefall (even our d-smash but may have to dash back first), and catching her up B landing is similarly punishable with whatever if her attack misses or is shielded. |
Her gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Otherwise just remember Photon Edge is shield punishable with whatever after she crosses up your shield or has to land in freefall (even our d-smash but may have to dash back first), and catching her up B landing is similarly punishable with whatever if her attack misses or is shielded. |
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* Watch out for Mythra using Foresight upon your uair if you mess up the timing. |
* Watch out for Mythra using Foresight upon your uair if you mess up the timing. |
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On walled stages like Kalos, dair can only be teched if the other Ridley is facing the stage. |
On walled stages like Kalos, dair can only be teched if the other Ridley is facing the stage. |
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His side B (grounded) and Skewer are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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===== Gameplan ===== |
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His single best move is the infamous d-tilt. It leads into combos and is safe to spam and on shield, so be careful when you get close to him. Your three options are shorthop over it, move away, or shield and roll away. If you land near him, try crossing him up so he'll have to turn around before using d-tilt. |
His single best move is the infamous d-tilt. It leads into combos and is safe to spam and on shield, so be careful when you get close to him. Your three options are shorthop over it, move away, or shield and roll away. If you land near him, try crossing him up so he'll have to turn around before using d-tilt. |
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If timed and positioned right above a platform, ROB nair, bair, and dair can hit us when we’re under it, so shield them still. |
If timed and positioned right above a platform, ROB nair, bair, and dair can hit us when we’re under it, so shield them still. |
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===== Gyro ===== |
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* If you catch gyro, it can also be good to throw it up which lets it stay in the air for a bit and ROB can't spawn another. It'll fall down eventually but it takes a while, so could be useful to eliminate gyro pressure. And don't just toss it up, but smash toss it up which sends farther (a smash input or A+B when tossing in a direction). |
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* If you have enough ledge intangibility, you can just wait the gyro out and then get off the ledge since it hits most ledge hangs; otherwise prepare to tech against the stage when you get hit by gyro. Also if gyro isn’t directly on the ledge (i.e. slightly further away but still threatens neutral getup), you can ledge jump and Z-catch the gyro (same input and timing as catching Diddy’s banana from ledge). |
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* The most consistent way to catch gyro is dash attack or pivot f-tilt but the best way is to run up jump + grab to shorthop Z-catch since you can act immediately after catching the gyro. Most normal characters can loop ROB once they hold gyro with something like gyro toss > nair/fair/uair > gyro toss again. |
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* ROB can crouch under gyro if you try to throw it at them around medium range but we can also do the same. This won't work if they are spinning gyro and then fire, it's only for when they are holding it and throw it as an item. |
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Its d-smash is 3 hits, while side B is ~6 hits without mashing & ~11 hits with mashing. |
Its d-smash is 3 hits, while side B is ~6 hits without mashing & ~11 hits with mashing. |
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When grabbing ROB near ledge at high %, can do a u-throw mixup so he’ll suffer more from landing than usual recovering. |
When grabbing ROB near ledge at high %, can do a u-throw mixup so he’ll suffer more from landing than usual recovering. Also during advantage, watch out for ROB reverse side B at ledge, as it can scoop and kill at higher %. Shield if you anticipate it. |
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If buried by his d-throw at lower %, be ready to DI his uair when mashing out of bury, or buffer a dair as a mixup. |
If buried by his d-throw at lower %, be ready to DI his uair when mashing out of bury, or buffer a dair as a mixup. |
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ROB bair might be able to hit ledge hang from on stage, so ledge getup attack when reacting to it. |
ROB bair might be able to hit ledge hang from on stage, so ledge getup attack when reacting to it. |
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If ROB does rising fair and you're shielding, you can up smash it. |
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If you parry one d-tilt and they do another (mashing d-tilt on your shield), you can punish with jab. The other moves are too slow in this instance. |
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His f-smash, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (99-108%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (99-108%) |
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Major credit to smub for the neutral tips against ROB's nair and such. |
Major credit to smub for the neutral tips against ROB's nair and such, and major credit to Hyrchurn on the more specific things about gyro and whatnot. |
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Go here to see how you can pick up Gyro with simply initial dash and jab. Unlike most if not all the other ways, it gives you enough time to shield ROB laser after picking up Gyro. |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130937696465107?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130940405985575?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130942998065390?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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https://x.com/johnnumbers/status/1840130945741185185?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ |
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Thunder, elthunder, and arcthunder all get cancelled out by a single fireball. When arcfire is airborne, it also loses to plasma aside from the other clanks. |
Thunder, elthunder, and arcthunder all get cancelled out by a single fireball. When arcfire is airborne, it also loses to plasma aside from the other clanks. |
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Their dair is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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When shielding a charged neutral B (Luma Shot), how you respond to it after depends on where it is, be it in front or behind you depending on how long it was charged. Jumping over the neutral B is a good option too. |
When shielding a charged neutral B (Luma Shot), how you respond to it after depends on where it is, be it in front or behind you depending on how long it was charged. Jumping over the neutral B is a good option too. |
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When they're separated, watch out for Luma's edgeguarding & ledgetrapping as much as Rosa's if not more, with it often being the front row opponent. Get-off-me aerials before recovering can also help against it. That said, Rosa punishes a high recovery on stage, and while recovering low is better, she can gimp like with dair, so watch your timing. If Luma's attacking up close near ledge, getup attack is best, but if Luma's close and not attacking, don't ledge getup attack because it's a bait; Rosa will come punishing after you hit Luma. It's better to ledge jump in that situation. |
When they're separated, watch out for Luma's edgeguarding & ledgetrapping as much as Rosa's if not more, with it often being the front row opponent. Get-off-me aerials before recovering can also help against it. That said, Rosa punishes a high recovery on stage, and while recovering low is better, she can gimp like with dair, so watch your timing. If Luma's attacking up close near ledge, getup attack is best, but if Luma's close and not attacking, don't ledge getup attack because it's a bait; Rosa will come punishing after you hit Luma. It's better to ledge jump in that situation. There's also up B poking Luma if Rosa's not nearby to punish. |
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When you grab Rosa, Luma can attack, so be as cautious in grabbing her as with Ice Climbers. Unlike IC's though, better off not pummeling and just throwing, preferably one that moves her away from Luma, and right after the throw, pull up shield so Luma doesn't hit you. If you throw Rosa far, can use that time to attack Luma and knock it off the stage. |
When you grab Rosa, Luma can attack, so be as cautious in grabbing her as with Ice Climbers. Unlike IC's though, better off not pummeling and just throwing, preferably one that moves her away from Luma, and right after the throw, pull up shield so Luma doesn't hit you. If you throw Rosa far, can use that time to attack Luma and knock it off the stage. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Her dair can hit us under platforms, but is not that strong. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Rosa u-tilt and u-smash have head intangibility. |
Rosa u-tilt and u-smash have head intangibility. |
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Aside from dash attack, her nair is 2 hits, fair is 5 hits, and side B is 3 hits. |
Aside from dash attack, her nair is 2 hits, fair is 5 hits, and side B is 3 hits. |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Her dair can hit us under plats but is not that strong. |
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Her f-smash, fair, and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can crouch under her fair while using d-tilt to stay under and hit a Luma that’s in front. |
We can crouch under her fair while using d-tilt to stay under and hit a Luma that’s in front. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Dash attack will beat Roy's short hop if spaced. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt -> fullhop uair (87-90%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (91-100%) |
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|oneliner=Dragon's fist meets the Dragon's wrath |
|oneliner=Dragon's fist meets the Dragon's wrath |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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* Placeholder |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (92-95%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-108%) |
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'''Counterplay: Bomb Stall'''<br> |
'''Counterplay: Bomb Stall'''<br> |
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If Samus is offstage, a thing they will typically do is bomb stall. Bomb stalling is a '''horizontal''' stall, that allows Samus to time grabbing a ledge and evade edge guards. Down Special allows Samus to fall a little slower and weave back and forth quickly. Keep in mind if Samus bounces off a bomb, she cannot act. Making her susceptible to attacks. The only thing Samus can do is move back and forth, so its best to force Samus to go low to make her use a double jump. This is effective as bomb stalling isn't really good at stalling vertically as Samus falls way faster than her bombs do. Once you take Samus's jump she is forced to stay around the height of ledge as if she bomb stalls a little too much, then she will not be able to recover. So she will only be allowed to roughly do 2-4 bombs before having to go to ledge. Note that she can only bring out two bombs and cannot bounce again without the bounce animation finishing. You should be intercepting her trying to get to ledge not the position where she is at. Also, do not be afraid of the bomb, as Ridley's aerials will beat it out and hit Samus. Using the bombs as a form of hitbox extension can be quite helpful for edge guards. |
If Samus is offstage, a thing they will typically do is bomb stall. Bomb stalling is a '''horizontal''' stall, that allows Samus to time grabbing a ledge and evade edge guards. Down Special allows Samus to fall a little slower and weave back and forth quickly. Keep in mind if Samus bounces off a bomb, she cannot act. Making her susceptible to attacks. The only thing Samus can do is move back and forth, so its best to force Samus to go low to make her use a double jump. This is effective as bomb stalling isn't really good at stalling vertically as Samus falls way faster than her bombs do. Once you take Samus's jump she is forced to stay around the height of ledge as if she bomb stalls a little too much, then she will not be able to recover. So she will only be allowed to roughly do 2-4 bombs before having to go to ledge. Note that she can only bring out two bombs and cannot bounce again without the bounce animation finishing. You should be intercepting her trying to get to ledge not the position where she is at. Also, do not be afraid of the bomb, as Ridley's aerials will beat it out and hit Samus. Using the bombs as a form of hitbox extension can be quite helpful for edge guards. |
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* While we can destroy bombs before they go off with spaced d-tilt & f-tilt, smashes, nair, bair, and maybe fair, watch the Samus so you don’t get punished by CS or grab while doing it. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Aside from grab, d-tilt and f-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering a delayed getup option. |
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering a delayed getup option. |
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* Being in the air during SPR allows Ridley to stall and avoid (during startup) small projectiles like baby CS from a shorthop. If her neutral B is charged any though, better to do a fullhop, which SPR can still whiff punish if timed & positioned right, but only do if not expecting her to jump and shoot it, a missile, or fair/zair. Unstaled SPR kills her ~140% if not a little earlier from what's been tested, though how much DI affects it remains to be seen, but Ridley being at somewhere high % with rage can help it kill even earlier depending. |
* Being in the air during SPR allows Ridley to stall and avoid (during startup) small projectiles like baby CS from a shorthop. If her neutral B is charged any though, better to do a fullhop, which SPR can still whiff punish if timed & positioned right, but only do if not expecting her to jump and shoot it, a missile, or fair/zair. Unstaled SPR kills her ~140% if not a little earlier from what's been tested, though how much DI affects it remains to be seen, but Ridley being at somewhere high % with rage can help it kill even earlier depending. |
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Her grab is 15 frames in startup & 37 in end lag, so you can dash attack her shield and jump or spotdodge and you'll still avoid a shield grab in time. Zair's 40 frames of end lag can allow you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop that is, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
Her grab is 15 frames in startup & 37 in end lag, so you can whiff punish with even something like Wing Blitz forward. Her shield grab is frame 19, so you can dash attack her shield and jump or spotdodge and you'll still avoid a shield grab in time. Zair's 40 frames of end lag can allow you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop that is, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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Line 3,688: | Line 4,274: | ||
* For a bit more clarification, Sephiroth can have a bad disadvantage at times. He just has a lot of mixups, but not really when he doesn't have Wing. He's really easy to ledgetrap, edgeguard, and it's even better that he dies so early because of his weight if you play your cards right. Again, what really helps him is Wing. Without it he's really easy to edgeguard. |
* For a bit more clarification, Sephiroth can have a bad disadvantage at times. He just has a lot of mixups, but not really when he doesn't have Wing. He's really easy to ledgetrap, edgeguard, and it's even better that he dies so early because of his weight if you play your cards right. Again, what really helps him is Wing. Without it he's really easy to edgeguard. |
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Octoslash is easy to ledge trump (shorthop > airdodge down into ledge or fullhop while facing ledge > down angle Wing Blitz to snap to it) and punish. Off stage nair beats out every Blade Dash (up B 1) recovery to ledge. When you see a Seph up B, count to 2, and if it's still charging, then it's Octoslash. Bair may not always be a true ledge trump punish, but trumping will still make him have to regrab ledge which opens up all sorts of punishes with less to no ledge intangibility. |
Octoslash is easy to ledge trump (shorthop > airdodge down into ledge or fullhop while facing ledge > down angle Wing Blitz to snap to it) and punish. Off stage nair as well as a timely down angle f-tilt beats out every Blade Dash (up B 1) recovery to ledge. When you see a Seph up B, count to 2, and if it's still charging, then it's Octoslash. Bair may not always be a true ledge trump punish, but trumping will still make him have to regrab ledge which opens up all sorts of punishes with less to no ledge intangibility. |
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Blade Dash is 25 frames of startup, while Octoslash is 36 frames. |
Blade Dash is 25 frames of startup, while Octoslash is 36 frames. |
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* If you knock him off stage around mid % and he comes back from a nair edgeguard as described earlier, he'll usually be around u-tilt > uair kill % at that point, so can go for it then. |
* If you knock him off stage around mid % and he comes back from a nair edgeguard as described earlier, he'll usually be around u-tilt > uair kill % at that point, so can go for it then. |
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Otherwise just remember you want to rely more on corner pressuring him than ledgetrapping to maintain advantage. If he’s nearing or at ledge, let him get past ledge to the corner and d-tilt him or something |
Otherwise just remember you want to rely more on corner pressuring him than ledgetrapping to maintain advantage. If he’s nearing or at ledge, can either let him get past ledge to the corner and d-tilt him or something (and when juggling, just remember to shield the landing side B or down B mixups and shield punish his dair), or fullhop to punish ledge drop fair and such. Jumping above him when covering roll distance can also be good at covering his ledge drop and ledge jump options. D-smash is good at covering ledge drop habits, particularly laggy ones like up B. Otherwise, f-tilt or shield up close to cover ledge drops and mess up his spacing. |
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Suffice to say, edgeguarding Sephiroth is a mixup. |
Suffice to say, edgeguarding Sephiroth off stage is a mixup. |
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* In neutral, Ridley can plasma Seph from afar like with Mega Man & Min-Min, and can crouch to avoid rising shorthop aerials nearby and whiff punish. |
* In neutral, Ridley can plasma Seph from afar like with Mega Man & Min-Min, and can crouch to avoid rising shorthop aerials nearby and whiff punish. |
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===== Remaining miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Remaining miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Ridley 2-frames: |
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* F-tilt |
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* D-smash |
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* Nair (sweetspot only) |
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* Dair |
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* Plasma Breath |
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* Wing Blitz (forward/down angle) |
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Sephiroth 2-frames: |
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* D-smash (ground variant only) |
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* Nair |
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* Dair |
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* Megaflare/Gigaflare |
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* Octaslash |
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His f-smash, u-smash, Scintilla, and Octoslash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are punished by at least nair OoS, while u-smash up close is punished by Rid f-smash, or u-smash OoS. His d-tilt, f-smash, and blade dash up B are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe though, so reset there unless they're poorly spaced (said dair is u-smash punishable). If you happen to shield side B, neutral B, or missed counter up close, it's punished by our aerials/grab and u-smash OoS. Can f/d-smash for Octoslash crossup as mentioned above, or turnaround Skewer with how punishable it is. |
His normals are punished by at least nair OoS, while u-smash up close is punished by Rid f-smash, or u-smash OoS. His d-tilt, f-smash, and blade dash up B are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe though, so reset there unless they're poorly spaced (said dair is u-smash punishable). If you happen to shield side B, neutral B, or missed counter up close, it's punished by our aerials/grab and u-smash OoS. Can f/d-smash for Octoslash crossup as mentioned above, or turnaround Skewer or Wing Blitz Forward with how punishable it is. |
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Jab 1/2/3, most of u-tilt, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, point-blank flare, up B (both versions), missed counter (4 hits & -25), and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Jab 1/2/3, most of u-tilt, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, point-blank flare, up B (both versions), missed counter (4 hits & -25), and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Watch out for him having OWA at these % ranges, allowing his smashes to armor through your u-tilt. To avoid this, whiff punish and u-tilt him, or setup a tech chase prior to the % ranges and if he ends up off stage, ledgetrap with u-tilt. |
Watch out for him having OWA at these % ranges, allowing his smashes to armor through your u-tilt. To avoid this, whiff punish and u-tilt him, or setup a tech chase prior to the % ranges and if he ends up off stage, ledgetrap with u-tilt. |
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Major credit to smub, Zant, and the collective Ridcord for a good chunk of this information. |
Major credit to smub, Zant, and the collective Ridcord for a good chunk of this information. Also credit to Kyoki on the 2-frame info as well as the parts on how to properly ledgetrap Sephiroth. |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Be quick to punish her u-tilt. Is 2 hits, 9 frames of end lag, and -11 on shield. |
Be quick to punish her u-tilt. Is 2 hits, 9 frames of end lag, and -11 on shield. |
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Sheik's up smash requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 19 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. Same for her uair hits except they have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform them. |
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Her u-smash and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Sheik's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some punished by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so either challenge them directly or reset if shielded. Same with burst grenade. Vanish you punish like you would Zelda's up B, point-blank needles are OoS aerial/grab punished, and bouncing fish as mentioned is punishable with whatever on shield if you react quick enough and catch her landing; even if she airdodges. Can try shorthop skewer OoS to catch her landing in that instance. |
Sheik's rapid jab finisher is shield punishable with dash attack or dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. Her normals are punished by at least nair OoS (some punished by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while u-smash when shielded up close is punished by Rid f-smash. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so either challenge them directly or reset if shielded. Same with burst grenade. Vanish you punish like you would Zelda's up B, point-blank needles are OoS aerial/grab punished, and bouncing fish as mentioned is punishable with whatever on shield if you react quick enough and catch her landing; even if she airdodges. Can try shorthop skewer OoS or Wing Blitz forward to catch her landing in that instance. |
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Rapid jab finisher, dash attack, u-smash, d-smash, down B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
Rapid jab finisher, dash attack, u-smash, d-smash, down B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Jump Art (green): jump +, defense - |
Jump Art (green): jump +, defense - |
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Will use this to recover, to go off stage and edgeguard you, or to counter your grounded plasma. As soon as he gets back to stage, he'll generally try to switch to a different art due to its drawback. |
* Will use this to recover, to go off stage and edgeguard you, or to counter your grounded plasma. As soon as he gets back to stage, he'll generally try to switch to a different art due to its drawback. |
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Speed Art (blue): speed +, damage dealt & jump height - |
Speed Art (blue): speed +, damage dealt & jump height - |
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Think of this as Mythra but deadlier. Watch out for low % combos and be on your toes. May want to be in the air when he slashes along the ground, since his jump is subpar. That also allows him to be gimped easier when off stage. |
* Think of this as Mythra but deadlier. Watch out for low % combos and be on your toes. May want to be in the air when he slashes along the ground, since his jump is subpar. That also allows him to be gimped easier when off stage. There's also getting on a platform and camping him until his monado time runs out. |
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Shield Art (yellow): Reduced knockback/damage taken & more shield health, lower jump height & speed and less damage & knockback dealt |
Shield Art (yellow): Reduced knockback/damage taken & more shield health, lower jump height & speed and less damage & knockback dealt |
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While he's a tank here with more defense and shield health, can go for grabbing more with how he'll rely more on shield. Lower level Shulk's will use this art when they're at high % and scared of getting KO'd, but higher level Shulk's know it's ineffective since all you have to do is throw projectiles he can't dodge, rack up combos he can't avoid, or gimp him off stage. Those players will use it to break out of combos or protect their landing. |
* While he's a tank here with more defense and shield health, can either go for grabbing more with how he'll rely more on shield, or rapid jab and plasma him since he'll be pretty slow. Lower level Shulk's will use this art when they're at high % and scared of getting KO'd, but higher level Shulk's know it's ineffective since all you have to do is throw projectiles he can't dodge, rack up combos he can't avoid, or gimp him off stage. Those players will use it to break out of combos or protect their landing. |
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Buster Art (purple): More damage dealt, more damage taken |
Buster Art (purple): More damage dealt, more damage taken |
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Shulk may also use at the beginning of a match to perform high damage combos that he couldn't do otherwise. Watch out for grab & d-throw which hurts with this on. Also be careful with your shield here, as this art can break it faster like with his tilts and especially d-smash. He becomes a glass cannon on the flipside, so camp and plasma, etc when possible. |
* Shulk may also use at the beginning of a match to perform high damage combos that he couldn't do otherwise. Watch out for grab & d-throw which hurts with this on. Also be careful with your shield here, as this art can break it faster like with his tilts and especially d-smash. He becomes a glass cannon on the flipside, so camp and plasma, etc when possible. |
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Smash Art (red): More knockback dealt, more knockback taken |
Smash Art (red): More knockback dealt, more knockback taken |
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While this art makes his shield damage low, relying on shield is risky due to grab, with his throws alone killing around ledge at high %. Can wait out this art which lasts 8 seconds, or use increased knockback against him like with SPR which kills him earlier than it otherwise would (~100%). All other moves kill ~40% earlier. |
* While this art makes his shield damage low, relying on shield is risky due to grab, with his throws alone killing around ledge at high %. Can wait out this art which lasts 8 seconds (such as camping at the ledge but watch out for his f-air), or use increased knockback against him like with SPR which kills him earlier than it otherwise would (~100%). All other moves kill ~40% earlier. |
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Is also important to know what they want to do during art cooldown. |
Is also important to know what they want to do during art cooldown. |
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Line 3,866: | Line 4,475: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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@ 8:19, |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qGghg1CJhg |
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@ 8:38, |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5PwC_0KboA |
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F-smash and u-smash are 2 hits, d-smash is 5 hits. Uair and dair are 2 hits. |
F-smash and u-smash are 2 hits, d-smash is 5 hits. Uair and dair are 2 hits. |
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Line 3,872: | Line 4,487: | ||
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
Respect his ledge getup attack range. |
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His jab 3, smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out faster than his and his ground game is worse, so while it's not recommended to be close to him, if you end up being there, worse for him. |
Our jab 1 comes out faster than his and his ground game is worse, so while it's not recommended to be close to him, if you end up being there, worse for him. |
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Line 3,899: | Line 4,518: | ||
For their whip itself, mainly remember they can angle their f-smash up and down, so don’t be too obvious with shorthop approaches and ledge stalling. Their fair and bair they can angle as well, which is sort of a problem when trying to catch their landing with a spaced d-tilt since they may still be able to hit you even when crouched (along with maybe dropping an axe or holy water as mixups from above). Their u-tilt doesn't have a diagonal blind spot for you to get in on, but their u-smash and uair does, though still have to watch out for axe and uppercut mixups when getting in on them that way. |
For their whip itself, mainly remember they can angle their f-smash up and down, so don’t be too obvious with shorthop approaches and ledge stalling. Their fair and bair they can angle as well, which is sort of a problem when trying to catch their landing with a spaced d-tilt since they may still be able to hit you even when crouched (along with maybe dropping an axe or holy water as mixups from above). Their u-tilt doesn't have a diagonal blind spot for you to get in on, but their u-smash and uair does, though still have to watch out for axe and uppercut mixups when getting in on them that way. |
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For some more on holy water, he can't B-reverse it. You can pummel to disable holy water and get a normal d-throw punish by doing so; just have to buffer 2 pummels like you normally would with later % grabs. If you buffer even one pummel it gives you a good time to react to the positioning of holy water, deciding whether you want to pummel again to disable the projectile or d-throw to get a combo going. If you aren't confident you can grab though, a drift in and out nair will work as a punish since it's disjointed enough to escape from holy water. Also, if holy water hits your shield point blank, you can grab Belmonts before they can act. |
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Otherwise, remember the spacings and openings + maneuverabilities in which you can plasma in neutral (while he's camping with his own projectiles) that makes it easier to approach him. Mainly do said approaches with pivot f-tilt and extended dash cancel d-tilt; while I mentioned the ways in which you can do so from the air, that's mainly if you're forced to like when you've been launched. |
Otherwise, remember the spacings and openings + maneuverabilities in which you can plasma in neutral (while he's camping with his own projectiles) that makes it easier to approach him. Mainly do said approaches with pivot f-tilt and extended dash cancel d-tilt; while I mentioned the ways in which you can do so from the air, that's mainly if you're forced to like when you've been launched. |
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Line 3,908: | Line 4,529: | ||
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Holy water requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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His smashes are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 3,919: | Line 4,544: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (100-107%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (100-107%) |
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Major credit to Sapphire on how we can punish Belmont f-tilt. |
Major credit to Sapphire on how we can punish Belmont f-tilt, and to Kyoki on the specific info for holy water. |
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}} |
}} |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Snake multihits- nair & dair (4 hits) |
Snake multihits- nair & dair (4 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation, and with Snake particularly you'll have to delay it a bit so you can snatch him under his cypher. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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His jab 3, fair, and dair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 4,104: | Line 4,733: | ||
Sonic multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (~5 hits) |
Sonic multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (~5 hits) |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His jab 3 is -26 & can be shorthop SPR OoS punished, while dash attack is -38 on shield and so can be punished with shorthop turnaround skewer OoS, etc. Likewise his u-smash is -29 which is f-smash punishable, and d-smash is -34 which is skewer punishable with some shield pushback (shorthop skewer OoS may be better). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Same goes for spin dash (side B) which is + on everything, but shielding’s still better than being hit by it. Homing attack however can be from -22 to -16 on shield, and spin charge (down B) is -33 unless it’s the jump aerial version which is -1. |
His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His jab 3 is -26 & can be shorthop SPR OoS punished, while dash attack is -38 on shield and so can be punished with shorthop turnaround skewer OoS, etc. Likewise his u-smash is -29 which is f-smash punishable, and d-smash is -34 which is skewer punishable with some shield pushback (shorthop skewer OoS may be better). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Same goes for spin dash (side B) which is + on everything, but shielding’s still better than being hit by it. Homing attack however can be from -22 to -16 on shield, and spin charge (down B) is -33 unless it’s the jump aerial version which is -1. |
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Line 4,128: | Line 4,761: | ||
Skewer comes out before Sora's counter, but can still counter it if timed right. Like K Rool, his only works in front, not from behind. Projectiles get reflected behind him, not back at you. If he counters horizontal Wing Blitz, can airdodge through the counter and continue to ledge as normal, though may not always work. He may use counter as a landing mixup. |
Skewer comes out before Sora's counter, but can still counter it if timed right. Like K Rool, his only works in front, not from behind. Projectiles get reflected behind him, not back at you. If he counters horizontal Wing Blitz, can airdodge through the counter and continue to ledge as normal, though may not always work. He may use counter as a landing mixup. |
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When he spams with Firaga by mashing B, our rapid jab & d-tilt are good consistent clank options, and full charged plasma can get through to him, although barely. Another way is to shield & jump in (OoS) occasionally, and shield again when you think they’ll stop fireballing and use Thundaga and punish with an OoS option. |
When he spams with Firaga by mashing B, our rapid jab & d-tilt are good consistent clank options, and full charged plasma can get through to him, although barely. Another way is to shield & jump in (OoS) occasionally, and shield again when you think they’ll stop fireballing and use Thundaga and punish with an OoS option. He may also go for a dash grab after Firaga if close enough. |
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As far as such projectile spam goes, just ask yourself what are they accomplishing by doing that. Keeping you away, but should they want to do that? No, they want to be able to press buttons in your face, so just don't be bothered by it. It'll interrupt your flow only as much as you let it. |
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A lot of zoning boils down to unnerving the opponent. If you're not unnerved then they accomplish nothing. |
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Always be aware against zoners or players that are using non-zoners as zoners that their job is not to keep you out but to let you in in a way they can punish. If you don't fall for the pitfall traps they lay out then their leverage against you becomes nothing. |
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That all said, when shielding Thundaga, be aware that he can run up and grab during the last hit, so evade accordingly. Delay your recovery to ledge if he has Thundaga active. |
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* He may also go for dash grab after fire. |
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If Blizzaga is active, be more wary about throwing out long range hitboxes (d-tilt, etc) than you otherwise would in neutral since even the tip of those moves can allow him to freeze you if he's close enough. That said, if you use a spaced d-tilt and it's not close enough to hit him, it may bait Sora to throw out Blizzaga, making it whiff. When frozen by it, mix up your mashing speed. At high %, may want to mash out slower so that you don't pop out right when Sora uses his up B to KO you and instead break free after that move is done. After the ice though, some Sora's also go for a landing uair since even if you mash out slower, they can still punish, so gotta mix up the timing. |
If Blizzaga is active, be more wary about throwing out long range hitboxes (d-tilt, etc) than you otherwise would in neutral since even the tip of those moves can allow him to freeze you if he's close enough. That said, if you use a spaced d-tilt and it's not close enough to hit him, it may bait Sora to throw out Blizzaga, making it whiff. When frozen by it, mix up your mashing speed. At high %, may want to mash out slower so that you don't pop out right when Sora uses his up B to KO you and instead break free after that move is done. After the ice though, some Sora's also go for a landing uair since even if you mash out slower, they can still punish, so gotta mix up the timing. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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For SDI on Sora, wait until the last hit of multi-hits like f-tilt, u-tilt, nair, fair, and up B, because those give you considerably more hitlag frames to perform needed SDI inputs, while the first couple hits only give you 1 hitlag frame to do so. That said, the single hit version of f-tilt and all three hits of sonic blade are more generous with their hitlag frames for you to SDI. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 4,242: | Line 4,886: | ||
Standing on blocks appears to cancel the end lag of skewer, after the animation at least which you can use against him like when he's on a platform. |
Standing on blocks appears to cancel the end lag of skewer, after the animation at least which you can use against him like when he's on a platform. |
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Then there's using SPR to slam him against block walls or the side of stage depending on where he places his blocks, and while situational, it can be good if it catches him off guard. |
Then there's using SPR to slam him against block walls or the side of stage depending on where he places his blocks, and while situational, it can be good if it catches him off guard. Another use is Steve going to ledge and mining with a wall which is a matchup check where if you jump over and use your multi-jumps to safely go over Steve if they try to up smash like they would for other characters who attempt, jump all the way over then side B them into their own wall, at ledge this will kill at 60% which also takes advantage of Steve's often shielding when someone tries to jump over said wall. |
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Plasma gets nullified if it hits the corner of a block, so just be aware. Other than that, it is recommended to pick stages with platforms (Battlefield and such) when possible, which makes it easier to avoid Steve's minecart, and don't try to shield it; just dodge it, though don't roll. Found that if you get caught in the cart even at high % and sent off stage with it, can roll your left stick quickly to mash out of it, and when you pop out of the cart, you still have your jumps that you can use to recover. If you hit Steve with a powerful attack first, it can destroy the minecart. D-tilt is good at covering it at a reactable burst range. |
Plasma gets nullified if it hits the corner of a block, so just be aware. Other than that, it is recommended to pick stages with platforms (Battlefield and such) when possible, which makes it easier to avoid Steve's minecart, and don't try to shield it; just dodge it, though don't roll. Found that if you get caught in the cart even at high % and sent off stage with it, can roll your left stick quickly to mash out of it, and when you pop out of the cart, you still have your jumps that you can use to recover. If you hit Steve with a powerful attack first, it can destroy the minecart. D-tilt is good at covering it at a reactable burst range. |
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Line 4,357: | Line 5,001: | ||
* Use a ceiling/wall tech when it comes to blocks. Unlike wall techs however, ceiling techs leave you unactionable until 25+ frames, leaving you free for a big punish. That said, when the Steve places a block diagonally above you like when you're cornered, expect him to try and grab, avoid it, and whiff punish him to knock toward the block instead; whiff punishing with fullhop nair followed by f-smash is good for instance. Even if they don't outright die from it, you're in a good position afterward. |
* Use a ceiling/wall tech when it comes to blocks. Unlike wall techs however, ceiling techs leave you unactionable until 25+ frames, leaving you free for a big punish. That said, when the Steve places a block diagonally above you like when you're cornered, expect him to try and grab, avoid it, and whiff punish him to knock toward the block instead; whiff punishing with fullhop nair followed by f-smash is good for instance. Even if they don't outright die from it, you're in a good position afterward. |
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* If you see Steve anvil dair and place a block next to himself, watch out since him attacking it gives him a big aerial boost which he can set up a combo off of. |
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If shielding an unsafe move, roll away/jump OoS, making his tether grab whiff. |
If shielding an unsafe move, roll away/jump OoS, making his tether grab whiff. |
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If Steve lands with the minecart on a platform and you're under it, can punish with u-tilt or u-smash. Likewise with ledgetrapping, you can up smash OoS punish the ledge jump minecart if it starts next to you and you won't get hit. |
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Steve multihits- d-tilt (5 hits), u-smash (9 hits), d-smash (3 hits) |
Steve multihits- d-tilt (5 hits), u-smash (9 hits), d-smash (3 hits) |
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A good chunk of Steve's moves (jab/f-tilt, u-tilt, fair, bair, uair) require either about or at least 2 SDI inputs, but they have plenty frames of hitlag (varies) for you to perform said SDI's. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Power Geyser is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Ridley's goal seems to be get into mid range of Tink since it seems like Tink has very limited tools to deal with Ridley at this range. Only consistent tool seems to be zair. Being mid range of Tink allows Ridley to outrange his normals and cause it to be too risky to use projectiles, giving him the only option of trying to retreat which will give up more stage control to Ridley. |
Ridley's goal seems to be get into mid range of Tink since it seems like Tink has very limited tools to deal with Ridley at this range. Only consistent tool seems to be zair. Being mid range of Tink allows Ridley to outrange his normals and cause it to be too risky to use projectiles, giving him the only option of trying to retreat which will give up more stage control to Ridley. |
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Toon Link's bombs seem to be the most threatening out of all the Link's, whether it's due to the explosion blocking the visuals or the way they interact with things along with the long fuse time. |
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Main things on fighting bomb is since it bounces off of shield, many Tink's will throw the bomb then jump and fair to grab it while attacking your shield. If they keep drifting in after the fair and you're are quick enough, you should have time to up smash OoS immediately which can help as they go for this even when they are at a high %. |
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You can also shield and try shorthop fair OoS to catch the bomb yourself after it bounces off your shield, but you would need to be quicker than the Tink running to grab the bomb themselves while also needing to be aware of if they see you do it they might just wait outside our fair range and punish hard. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
===== Disadvantage ===== |
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Remember too if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
Remember too if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better. |
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Line 4,504: | Line 5,169: | ||
Tink's normals besides d-tilt can be punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair you may be able to u-smash OoS depending on altitude, but otherwise nair OoS it. His jab 3, up B (grounded), and ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
Tink's normals besides d-tilt can be punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Said dair you may be able to u-smash OoS depending on altitude, but otherwise nair OoS it. His jab 3, up B (grounded), and ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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Note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 34 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with |
Note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 34 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such. Also, zair's 53 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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His jab 3, smashes, grounded up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately maneuver/jump the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
His jab 3, smashes, grounded up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately maneuver/jump the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
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Line 4,515: | Line 5,180: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-96%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (88-96%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU section for much of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU section for much of this info, and to Sapphire on how we can potentially OoS punish Toon Link's that are harassing our shield with bombs + aerials. |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 4,550: | Line 5,215: | ||
Villager d-smash can bury, so watch out. |
Villager d-smash can bury, so watch out. |
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Timber axe is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %. |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Villager rapid jab finisher is punished by dash attack, dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. His normals are punished by more of our OoS aerials & shield grab, except his smashes. His landing aerials are also too safe. Axe is unsafe enough for us to f/d-smash punish, but it does much shield damage. |
Villager rapid jab finisher is punished by dash attack, dash grab, and shorthop OoS into SPR. His normals are punished by more of our OoS aerials & shield grab, except his smashes. His landing aerials are also too safe. Axe is unsafe enough for us to f/d-smash punish, but it does much shield damage. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
===== Advantage ===== |
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Ridley can hit Wario on ledge with basically anything he wants. Wario’s ledge drop aerials aren’t that good either. Fair is fast but is stubby and you’ll be ledgetrapping from further ranges anyway. This means Wario is pretty standard on the ledge. He’s gotta mixup the default options to find his openings. Abuse plasma and tilts to condition and trap him. |
Ridley can hit Wario on ledge with basically anything he wants. Wario’s ledge drop aerials aren’t that good either. Fair is fast but is stubby and you’ll be ledgetrapping from further ranges anyway. This means Wario is pretty standard on the ledge. He’s gotta mixup the default options to find his openings. Abuse plasma and tilts to condition and trap him. His go-to option tends to be ledge jump since he struggles on ledge. |
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If Wario has bike off stage, he can easily get back to stage for free by going high. Ridley has a hard time intercepting this form of recovery. Wario off stage without his bike though is food for us due to not being able to contest nair, fair, or bair off stage, along with his linear recovery without bike. |
If Wario has bike off stage, he can easily get back to stage for free by going high. Ridley has a hard time intercepting this form of recovery. Wario off stage without his bike though is food for us due to not being able to contest nair, fair, or bair off stage, along with his linear recovery without bike. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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If you're being combo'd, you want to SDI away from plats, and if you're getting combo'd on a plat you want to SDI up. If Wario still has waft, you want to SDI towards center. |
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Keep in mind he can do uair > waft as a shield break if your shield’s not at full health. |
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If you do a landing pivot (holding the other direction as you land which makes you turn that direction in the process), you can punish his lingering nair with the back hit of our up smash. |
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Remember that Wario will play patiently by floating in and out of your range while gathering waft, an example being floating in and out with his aerials to safely poke in neutral. Also be careful of moves that whiff against smaller characters which he can whiff punish with his up tilt and then combo. |
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Up throw is his combo throw, making it dangerous on platform stages. |
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His fair OoS puts you in a tech chase situation, so be ready to tech when you see that stubby jump kick. |
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D-tilt > dash attack is a Wario kill confirm, so watch out at higher %, and jump OoS since d-tilt's safe on shield. His up tilt, nair, and uair also confirm into waft. Keep in mind he can do uair > waft as a shield break if your shield’s not at full health. Also, fully charged waft on its own that passively charges over time has super armor. |
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Bite is mashable. |
Bite is mashable. |
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His up smash has head intangibility on frames 8-14. |
His up smash has head intangibility on frames 8-14. |
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If you get him off his bike, can help to not use it up against him or destroy it instantly, and instead keep it on the ground like near the corner as long as possible to keep it out of play. |
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Dair is 7 hits, so remember when shielding with it being unsafe. It also hits us easily under platforms. |
Dair is 7 hits, so remember when shielding with it being unsafe. It also hits us easily under platforms. |
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His f-smash, u-smash, bair, uair, and Waft are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Our jab 1 comes out well before his, so always use up close. |
Our jab 1 comes out well before his, so always use up close. |
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Line 4,611: | Line 5,298: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%) |
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Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info. |
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info, and credit to Capo on SDI against Wario. |
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}} |
}} |
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Line 4,640: | Line 5,327: | ||
The ball is still an active hitbox even after shielding or parrying it, so watch your space. |
The ball is still an active hitbox even after shielding or parrying it, so watch your space. |
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Their jab 3, f-smash, u-smash, and bair are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Their jab 3, f-smash, and u-smash is shield punishable by our own f-smash. Their other normals and two projectile specials are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their d-smash & ledge getup attack (-27) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
Their jab 3, f-smash, and u-smash is shield punishable by our own f-smash. Their other normals and two projectile specials are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their d-smash & ledge getup attack (-27) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Wolf dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 14 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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|oneliner= |
|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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===== Gameplan ===== |
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The neutral is bait & punish 101. Yoshi almost always has to approach from the air due to having one of the lowest shorthops in the game, and Ridley has a good enough dash speed to avoid it. Dash back, f-tilt (up angle included), d-tilt, nair, f-smash, etc. Yoshi's love flying in with dair's and fair's to try to get a ton of damage on you. Angle your shield accordingly to avoid getting poked by the multi-hits. |
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Bait & punish 101. Yoshi almost always has to approach from the air due to having one of the lowest shorthops in the game, and Ridley has a good enough dash speed to avoid it. Dash back, f-tilt (up angle included), d-tilt, nair, f-smash, etc. Yoshi's love flying in with dair's and fair's to try to get a ton of damage on you. Angle your shield accordingly to avoid getting poked by the multi-hits. |
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Hold shield at ledge when they're trying to recover. Lots of Yoshi's try to throw eggs and then jump over you. That’s a free up smash out of shield. Slightly past mid %, a bair can hit Yoshi's egg throw and hit Yoshi himself through his double jump armor, making d-throw/d-tilt > bair much effective. If a Yoshi uses an aerial during or after their DJ, their DJ armor is cancelled and you're free to challenge him with an edgeguard aerial of your own. They may do it as a get-off-me when feeling pressured. If a Yoshi uses down B to grab ledge, can react with an aerial beforehand. |
Hold shield at ledge when they're trying to recover. Lots of Yoshi's try to throw eggs and then jump over you. That’s a free up smash out of shield. Slightly past mid %, a bair can hit Yoshi's egg throw and hit Yoshi himself through his double jump armor, making d-throw/d-tilt > bair much effective. If a Yoshi uses an aerial during or after their DJ, their DJ armor is cancelled and you're free to challenge him with an edgeguard aerial of your own. They may do it as a get-off-me when feeling pressured. If a Yoshi uses down B to grab ledge, can react with an aerial beforehand. |
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For stages, ban PS2 or any stage with plats when possible. His down B goes through them too. |
For stages, ban PS2 or any stage with plats when possible. His down B goes through them too. |
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===== Neutral ===== |
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While the tongue grabs (grab and neutral B) are mixups to punish shielding, also watch out for B-reverse neutral B that he may use to fade in with from the air. |
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With platform pressuring in neutral, also remain aware of Egg Lay as a mixup which mostly punishes spamming moves in place due to its tongue disjoint. Likewise, if you're sitting on a platform, two unique options Yoshi has are using egg throw upward through the plat for a disjointed hitbox that provides generous hitstun, and then jumping into an Egg Lay to punish shielding. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
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Juggles and ledgetrapping are easier than off-stage edgeguarding due to DJ armor. |
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While juggling, Yoshi can down B to break through it, though this is very punishable if you are grounded and wait out the stars to run in with a tilt, dash attack, or SPR (window is about 30 frames once the stars go away). Yoshi’s best landing move is dair, but the lagginess of it means that it's rarely preferable. Just otherwise watch out for whiff punishes from him when in this situation. |
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When edgeguarding Yoshi, you'll have to account for his three recovery resources: double jump, first egg throw tossed since last touching the ground, and airdodge. Egg throw stalls Yoshi’s fall and allows normal drift, with the first throw giving a slight boost in height, the second keeping him level, and the third onward providing no benefit. Yoshi’s airdodge is decent and best used neutrally to carry momentum forward through attacks. Its upward range is about that of egg throw boost, so expect it will fail if the Yoshi uses it about 1.5 Yoshi-heights below ledge. |
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When going off stage to hit him, just make sure you don't drift into a fair (thus getting spiked) or bair, and stay patient so as to avoid whiffs which Yoshi can easily convert from. A simple trick if you want to apply pressure is to nair during an extra jump and quickly fastfall if it whiffs to retreat out of their threat zone (just make sure you’re not SDing in the process). Can use off-stage SPR if you’re feeling it, as Yoshi can’t repeat his recovery options a 2nd time, but keep in mind this may be the worst character in the game to whiff such a move against, and since edgeguarding is otherwise much riskier than ledgetrapping, it should be reserved more for high recoveries where you aren’t as likely to be spiked on stage or get the chance to ledgetrap. |
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Ledgetrapping Yoshi is the most profitable advantage state with that said. He has few tools for beating out plasma, and his slow fall speed means that you can follow the arc of a ledge jump to convert into a juggle fairly easily. Generally, just space your plasma over the ledge, two or three at a time, and wait to see what they do. If they drop into a fade-in egg throw, shield and punish the end lag. Be ready for roll-in with big or highly-active hitboxes. If they hang out too long and lose invincibility, space a d-smash to cover every option except ledge jump (which you may still get). |
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Don’t spam f-tilt except to bait an option, as you will be within Yoshi’s getup attack range. If your plasma connects and sends them below ledge, keep doing small bursts to shorten the window Yoshi can climb through, and start doing full charge once they’re far down. Yoshi has no quick burst movement off-stage besides double-jump, so you are basically guaranteed the kill. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
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This is the easiest state to understand because the logic is consistent throughout: Wait to see what Yoshi does, never mash a panic option, and save your jumps to recover low. You still have to deal with egg throw which can complicate mostly any situation while you’re in the air. Its hitstun is generous and will stall you or pop you up to allow him to move in or reset position, though the endlag is enough to mean that maneuvering around/nair-ing it can put you in almost-neutral frames. Its confirms are endless; fear the egg. |
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Unlike Ridley in this matchup, edgeguarding and aerial engagements in general are where Yoshi will be at his strongest. While disadvantaged in the air, fade back from Yoshi as soon as possible to force him to read your movement, airdodging through his attacks when he chases with a hitbox. If he doesn’t immediately chase, find the clearest way back to stage and ready a nair to box him out. |
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Yoshi’s air acceleration is better than ours of course, so you’ll have to time these options carefully to ensure they don’t subtly weave into position to catch you. Lingering off-stage or moving predictably is asking to be fair spiked. The spacing is somewhat difficult on Yoshi’s part though, but landing it nearly guarantees a kill after 25%. However you choose to act, don’t try to do anything cute while using up your recovery resources. |
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When recovering low against Yoshi, the only realistic option he has to beat Wing Blitz is to fade-in bair. It’s exceedingly dangerous for him to use the other small hitboxes available to him, and even the threat of a fair spike is minimized because of Wing Blitz's disjoint. Be ready to tech this option and if you can react quickly enough, throw out a nair to potentially gimp him in return. You should still be able to Wing Blitz back up with plenty of space if you do it near immediately. An interesting note about WB in this scenario is that egg lay has a grab disjoint twice the length of Yoshi’s bair which can safely snatch you out of it, so look out for that. |
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When being juggled, much of our survival is dependent on making ourselves harder to follow. It’s sometimes better to try and drift away gradually and force Yoshi to execute with greater difficulty than to always airdodge through him. This is especially true if Yoshi has platforms to reset his strings. Airdodging away from Yoshi, instead of through, can sometimes be beneficial to creating a gap they can’t effectively close. |
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If there is adequate space to land on the main stage and not a platform, you can make an attempt to nair your way through (for less end lag and a hitbox) or skirt their approach with dair (for faster movement to stage). If you don’t have much room to land, or there are platforms in the way, retreating to ledge is always a good option. |
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Aside from reading your ledge option, getting off ledge versus Yoshi is fairly simple. Spaced egg throw can cover getup options but it’s not fast enough to work on reaction, so make sure you’re not buffering an option that sends you straight into it. Reserve things like ledge drop SPR or forward Wing Blitz as a once per game mixup, as Yoshi is well equipped to catch repeat attempts. Neutral getup can be dangerous if Yoshi is about one Ridley-sized dash attack from ledge as he can run up into a fade back nair to catch you with no risk. Hanging on ledge is fine, as Yoshi has no options but egg throw to hit Ridley’s good ledge hang. |
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Last but not least, for times when Yoshi successfully lands Egg Lay and you need to mash out, make sure you're only rotating the left stick and not performing button inputs. Because the mash required is generally not very demanding until well past 100%, focusing entirely on the stick is all you should need. |
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On mashing out, you receive 7 frames of intangibility and a slight vertical boost, so buffering an input isn't necessary or wise. Keep in mind that the first button input you do during this state, or during any bury for that matter, will be what your character does when they regain control. If you input neutral attack first, then Ridley will start a nair as he pops out of the egg. That said, if you think you can manage it, try inputting a simultaneous jump + aerial to boost Ridley before landing cancels the attack. Airdodging away can also be decent, but it's difficult to ensure you have the right direction before starting stick rotations. |
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There's not much definitive counterplay on Yoshi's part as the invincibility frames prevent attacks from immediately connecting unless they read the pop-out and delay their assault. Because of this, they will mostly likely attempt a fullhop aerial or 2nd aerial Egg Lay. Ridley's only option that outright loses in most cases is buffering a jump with no aerial as Yoshi is going to be in the process of throwing the egg for damage and may clip you, or they will be up in the air prepared to catch you. |
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Line 4,732: | Line 5,473: | ||
* Ridley's non-jab grounded attacks all break it past 86% with no rage. |
* Ridley's non-jab grounded attacks all break it past 86% with no rage. |
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* Ridley's aerial attacks all break it past 105% with no rage. |
* Ridley's aerial attacks all break it past 105% with no rage. |
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* While on a platform, skewer can catch Yoshi double jumping onto it while ignoring the DJ armor. |
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* F-tilt and nair beat every hitbox Yoshi has except tongue grabs. |
* F-tilt and nair beat every hitbox Yoshi has except tongue grabs. |
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* All of Yoshi's aerials can cross up shield when at full airspeed. |
* All of Yoshi's aerials can cross up shield when at full airspeed. |
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Line 4,739: | Line 5,481: | ||
* Yoshi neutral B is mashable. |
* Yoshi neutral B is mashable. |
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* Yoshi multihits- bair (3 hits), dair (~13 hits) |
* Yoshi multihits- bair (3 hits), dair (~13 hits) |
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* Yoshi dair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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* Yoshi’s grounded down B starts killing at 125% |
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* Respect his grab range. |
* Respect his grab range. |
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* His f-smash and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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* We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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* Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
* Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup. |
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Line 4,753: | Line 5,499: | ||
* u-tilt > double jump uair (97-103%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (97-103%) |
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Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info. |
Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info, and especially to Rex for the particular things on neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. |
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}} |
}} |
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Be quicker to whiff punish his u-smash than other moves. |
Be quicker to whiff punish his u-smash than other moves. |
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Yink's arrows require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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Remember if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
Remember if you grab him when a boomerang is still going, timely use d-throw to take advantage of the invincibility frames so it doesn't hit you on the way back. Can pummel while waiting. |
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Besides rapid jab skewer punish (with shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent, though shield drop > d-smash also works), Yink's normals apart from d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while his f-smash 2 is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. His jab 3 & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are insanely safe though as previously mentioned (as well as rising bair), so reset there. |
Besides rapid jab skewer punish (with shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent, though shield drop > d-smash also works), Yink's normals apart from d-tilt are punished by at least nair OoS (some by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), while his f-smash 2 is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. His jab 3 & ledge getup attack (-25) are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His landing aerials besides dair are insanely safe though as previously mentioned (as well as rising bair), so reset there. |
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Already covered his specials on shield, though note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 33 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with |
Already covered his specials on shield, though note his grab is 12 frames in startup and 33 frames of end lag, so can potentially whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such (same with f-smash 2). Also, zair's 55 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately jump/maneuver the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Remember not to shield too obviously though because of the tether grab (expect an up throw and immediately jump/maneuver the other way to avoid u-smash/uair/up B & pick your landing) which you may be better off whiff punishing than trying to shield punish the other mentioned moves. |
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|game=SSBU |
|game=SSBU |
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|character=Zelda |
|character=Zelda |
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|favorability= |
|favorability=Slightly Losing |
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|oneliner= |
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|summary= |
|summary= |
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===== Gameplan ===== |
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Zelda is a trap character archetype and as such you need to fight her patiently. Not just with Ridley but as anyone, but Ridley isn't especially screwed by her I find. Approach slowly, or outcamp her (not so much with plasma as she counters that, though can do it when she’s off stage but be ready to shield her up B after like in other instances) and force her to approach you. She usually wants to camp because her approach game isn't very good, so play her game, while shielding her up B. Whenever you do approach though, try and bait her to use Nayru's Love before attacking. If correctly spaced, doing so will allow a free punish with skewer or any spaced move. When you've got her in a combo or tech chase, she may do a panic neutral B as a get-off-me tool, so be sure you space your moves as well as possible in those instances (tilts, aerials, etc) to mitigate being punished by it, or just delay your followup move altogether if you’re sure she’ll neutral B, and then continue your attack string. She may also neutral B as an OoS mixup where she does a jump OoS followed by pressing B, but her up B OoS is much more threatening. More on that later. |
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Zelda uses a set-up archetype, which forces Ridley to fight her patiently. Screw up her spacing by approaching slowly or force her to to commit to an approach. Since Zelda has the lack of approach options, more often than not you will have to rely on spacing in neutral to counter her. Zelda relies on covering a certain part of each stage to get her set-ups going. The main goal is to understand the positions she uses her specials and respect her options that cover grounded and aerial approaches. |
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Platforms will give you more wiggle room to work around her set-ups. Allowing access to more movement options and positioning. Note that, you do not want to rely on being on the platform but rather use them as a tool to bait Zelda. Having to shield on platforms gives Zelda an opportunity for stronger positioning making it harder to pressure her. Using a mixture of dashes on and off platforms, full and short hops, and shields on stage and on platforms. Creating a dynamic of pushing stage control on the ground or creating pressure from above. |
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Din's Fire she'll mainly use to edgeguard (when neutral airdodging it while recovering high, be careful of her trying to aerial you after and try to react with an aerial of your own) but if she uses it on stage or from ledge jump, take the opportunity to close in on her with a burst option with how laggy it is (clanking with it while approaching if she uses it from further away) or even skewer if you time and space it right while closing in on her, but watch out if she switches back to Phantom Knight after the Din's Fire. She's also one of the characters that rapid jab skewer punish can apply to, but frame wise f-smash is a more consistent punish for hers, or up smash if you shield the rapid jab from behind and doesn't push you too far back. If you use SPR on her at all, don't do the jump release in hope for an aerial setup (unless you’re at higher % than her where she can mash out), as she can counter most attempts with her specials/aerials. |
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Farore's Wind is her fastest option out of shield, at frame 6. So be ready for it when you are trying to pressure her shield at close range. It is also a kill move and movement option that is unreactable. It can be used to snipe us from far range as a whiff punish or a way to retreat. Use movement to bait her into using Farore's wind depending on the position she is trying to be in. Which can be for a kill out of shield or from a set-up. It can also be from a platform, from an offstage recovery, or from a juggle. Note that the final hit is safer in the air than it is when done on the ground. |
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'''Dealing With Phantom Slash''' |
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Phantom Slash has 5 stages of charge. All having different hitboxes, ranges, and additional properties gained. |
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Stage 1 - A low kick. |
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She's another character that needs to be fought on platform stages if anything, giving you more room to work with around the phantom knight, though when on plats you still need to shield the knight's attacks, or even if you're below a plat the knight is on since we're a big body; attack from above or below while she's charging the knight and occasionally rushdown her when she’s charging it as a mixup like when she’s off stage to keep her guessing (fullhop > dair is good in this instance as well as run off stage and uair if she's recovering & charging knight from above), and while at ledge do a normal getup when the knight strikes like with other ledge traps, or if being edgeguarded above stage, nair through Din's Fire and neutral airdodge the knight on your way down; can also plank temporarily by timing ledge drops to avoid the knight. |
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* 15-19 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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Be careful about simply jumping over the knight though, as she will expect that and meet you with an aerial kick. Wing Blitz backward can be used in that instance as a mixup read if you expect a jump, or to catch her sleeping when charging a knight on a platform if you're diagonally below her. Sometimes too it can be good to just do a ledge jump/fullhop or double jump plasma on her while avoiding the knight, as she may fade back and neutral B during an aerial approach which'll stop you in your tracks and launch you into the swing of the knight, and even if she does reflect the plasma, it won't matter while you're in the air. |
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Stage 2 - A high punich. Has a windbox. |
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* 20-27 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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Stage 3 - An outward sword slash. Has a windbox. |
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* 28-37 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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Stage 4 - A downward sword swing. Has a windbox. |
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* 38-44 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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Stage 5- A downward sword slash with shield. Has a windbox. Can reflect projectiles. |
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* 45-49 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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Stage 6 - An upward sword slash with shield. Has a windbox. Can reflect projectiles. |
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* 50-120 Charge Frames |
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* HP |
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The 4th stage with overhead slash when the shoulder pads appear can also catch a jump or ledge jump and if summoned off stage, it can hit you from underneath. The 5th stage when the helmet appears can also hit ledge and 2 frame (though only hits ledge hang if summoned closer than center stage and you can ledge drop on reaction to avoid being hit), and once the phantom is fully assembled at its 6th stage, Zelda can move and attack freely, while the knight momentarily remains still until attacking with a dashing upward slash. |
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During the phantom knight's charging state, as soon as the helmet is conjured (semi-final stage), Zelda can't release it early or mix up her timing; only before the helmet appears. |
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If she has a knight ready and you're off stage, fastfall or airdodge while drifting forward to recover low and avoid the strike. Don’t always recover low though like in the case of her going off stage to dair spike; for clarification, the knight has six different charge stages, those being a kick, a punch, an outward slash when the sword first appears, an overhead slash when the shoulder pads appear (can catch a jump/ledge jump and if summoned off stage, it can hit you from underneath), an upward slash when the helmet appears (this can hit ledge and 2 frame), and once the phantom is fully assembled at its 6th stage, Zelda can move and attack freely, while the knight momentarily remains still until attacking with a dashing upward slash. |
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Aside from interrupting Zelda's charge, the knight can also be destroyed by dealing enough damage with like projectiles such as our plasma breath, a fully charge plasma which can destroy a full charged knight if you think you can risk it depending on the timing and distance, but dodging it will be a better option when in doubt. Also too, she may try to counter with an up B before the full charged plasma comes out, but if you're positioned well enough to destroy the knight with it, can try it and see what she does. |
Aside from interrupting Zelda's charge, the knight can also be destroyed by dealing enough damage with like projectiles such as our plasma breath, a fully charge plasma which can destroy a full charged knight if you think you can risk it depending on the timing and distance, but dodging it will be a better option when in doubt. Also too, she may try to counter with an up B before the full charged plasma comes out, but if you're positioned well enough to destroy the knight with it, can try it and see what she does. |
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Be careful about simply jumping over the knight though, as she will expect that and meet you with an aerial kick. Sometimes it can be good to just do a ledge jump/fullhop or double jump plasma on her while avoiding the knight, as she may fade back and neutral B during an aerial approach which'll stop you in your tracks and launch you into the swing of the knight, and even if she does reflect the plasma, it won't matter while you're in the air. |
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If she's traveling through the air (like off stage) while charging the knight, it will catch onto ledges behind her, even if she doesn't land on the floor herself. She typically uses it to cover two bases when edgeguarding; the knight to cover ledge, while going low herself to catch a low recovery, but when recovering, you can defend yourself with attacks such as nair or uair (try to do so before she does something like neutral B that'll knock you back or worse send you into the path of the phantom strike) before using your up B to get back to the ledge, or if you use Wing Blitz early enough, will stop her in her tracks. Also watch out for her neutral B or nair possibly launching you to the side of the stage, and be ready to tech so you don't get stage spiked. |
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If there's a pause in between her summoning a knight again, can try and approach and see what she does, and even if she begins summoning one as you do so, she won't have time to charge it to a stronger form, resulting in either interrupting her with an attack or allowing for an attack trade between you and her at worst with you getting hit by a weaker knight as you hit her. A timed single or half charge plasma breath can occasionally interrupt her phantom charge too, but do so sparingly to avoid it being reflected back at you with Nayru's Love (though an even number of fireballs of 2 or 4 will cancel each other out which can allow you to punish with a burst option like SPR at max range) or her countering with an up B. Also if she's a bit far and begins a knight summon, can dash in and out to gather info on when she likes to unleash it. |
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If she's nearby charging a knight and you're shielding, can spot dodge if you time it right, roll behind her before she finishes getting her knight out, or perhaps better yet, fullhop or double jump OoS and do a fastfall landing aerial on her from above; namely with nair, uair, dair, skewer fastfall if lucky, bair if facing backwards, some falling plasma, or fullhop into a fastall empty landing for a tomahawk grab. F-air may also be possible, but might be harder to time in this instance as a multi-hit move. |
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All and all, mix up how you deal with the knight and recovering against her; it's a mind game battle more than anything. Like you normally would in neutral for spacing your moves, stay within mid range or burst range where she can't reliably charge the knight and more often interrupt her. She can of course shorthop back and begin summoning it, but if you catch on, that won't always work either. With patience too you can close the gap between you and her when her knight is in end lag. Her neutral without knight is more limited. Limit your interactions with Zelda and her knight by retreating in general (dash shield if you're expecting an up B), going to the ledge, or going to a platform if on a stage with one, allowing you to choose your options more wisely while being harder to hit. |
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* Still pay attention as to what charge state her knight is in when you decide to jump or otherwise evade it, because if she charges it to one of the higher states when you decide to wait and jump, it'll be a lot harder to dodge the strike due to the knight having more reach in its attack the more it's charged up. This mainly applies if you’re a bit further away from her and not close up. See the knight’s hitboxes here to get an idea, where you normally have to do at least a double jump (not so much IDJ) to get over the fully charged strike. |
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https://x.com/plugandbug/status/1327722692489908225?s=46 |
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If there's a pause in between her summoning a knight again, can try and approach and see what she does, and even if she begins summoning one as you do so, she won't have time to charge it to a stronger form, resulting in either interrupting her with an attack or allowing for an attack trade between you and her at worst with you getting hit by a weaker knight as you hit her. A timed single or half charge plasma breath can occasionally interrupt her phantom charge too, but do so sparingly to avoid it being reflected back at you with Nayru's Love (though an even number of fireballs of 2 or 4 will cancel each other out which can allow you to punish with a burst option like SPR at max range) or her countering with an up B. Also if she's a bit far and begins a knight summon, can dash in and out to gather info on when she likes to unleash it. |
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Like you normally would in neutral for spacing your moves, stay within mid range or burst range where she can't reliably charge the knight and more often interrupt her. She can of course shorthop back and begin summoning it, but if you catch on, that won't always work either. With patience too you can close the gap between you and her when her knight is in end lag. Her neutral without knight is more limited. Limit your interactions with Zelda and her knight by retreating in general (dash shield if you're expecting an up B), going to the ledge, or going to a platform if on a stage with one, allowing you to choose your options more wisely while being harder to hit. |
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In neutral, being out of knight's range will usually be better than shielding (not only do you want to conserve shield health but she can punish shield with grab during the final charge phase where she gets to move around unless you're much further away from her) or jumping over (which she can punish with an aerial or anti-air). Even if further away, while the knight's in end lag, this is your opportunity to close the gap since her neutral becomes a lot worse without it. Once you understand how she uses knight, her best move by far is u-tilt which combos into itself and aerials. |
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Going more into her up B or Farore's Wind to emphasize how much you need to respect it, it's her fastest out of shield option, so be ready for it when she's shielding or you're pressuring said shield, followed by you shielding yourself in order to punish it; f-smash is pretty much a guaranteed punish after shielding. Even just dashing away can bait her to up B, which again you can punish by dash shielding. The first hit of her up B can be DI'd (want to DI away or DI down typically), so be warned that you may have to react to or anticipate this DI. She'll also use this as part of a tech chase combo (so don't miss tech) or mix up her options and movement when in disadvantage, arguably her greater weakness. |
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===== Advantage ===== |
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Because Zelda can control her air drift almost immediately after reappearing, she can use it to snipe you from high off stage and still be able to grab the ledge. When expecting this, try to either do a downward Wing Blitz asap when up high and at the angle where it can snap to ledge, or dair if you still have enough jumps to recover after. Like with neutral B, if her up B hits you off stage when low, it can send you upward into the path of a phantom strike. She can also use up B to snipe after knocking you off stage with a phantom strike in order to finish you, though since she can't recover herself afterward, she'll only go for it when significantly behind in % or during a last stock end of game situation. She can ledge cancel with her up B as well, typically to position herself for a quick edgeguard, so be ready. |
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With how her recovery works as a trap character (and keeping you from going off stage against her with her knight and Nayru's Love), ledge trapping is preferable to edgeguarding her, though keep in mind she can do a ledgehop (ledge drop double jump) aerial such as nair, side B from off stage, and plank with her uair or up B poke like us to keep you on your toes while attempting to ledgetrap, so don't let those catch you off guard; her up B poke also leaves herself more exposed to a strong attack like when we do ours, so punish when possible. It's also good to face away from ledge while shielding her up B, and then up smash OoS, f-tilt/f-air to cover ledge roll, etc, although if she does an up B poke around ledge, a spaced 2-frame can punish it. |
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Din's Fire she'll mainly use to edgeguard but if she uses it on stage or from ledge jump, take the opportunity to close in on her with a burst option with how laggy it is (clanking with it while approaching if she uses it from further away) or even skewer if you time and space it right while closing in on her, but watch out if she switches back to Phantom Knight after the Din's Fire. |
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When you've got her in a combo or tech chase, she may do a panic neutral B as a get-off-me tool, so be sure you space your moves as well as possible in those instances (tilts, aerials, etc) to mitigate being punished by it, or just delay your followup move altogether if you’re sure she’ll neutral B, and then continue your attack string. She may also neutral B as an OoS mixup where she does a jump OoS followed by pressing B, but her up B OoS is much more threatening. More on that later. |
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With her specials covered, going a bit into her normals, keep in mind that her up angle f-tilt along with u-tilt are potent anti-airs similar to our own, and with how her u-tilt lingers, can sometimes even catch you while neutral airdodging down. You don't want to be right above her anyway when trying to recover on stage from up high because of her uair, so retreat to ledge when needed if nothing else or if you're not in a position for another vertical burst option like dair. Speaking of her uair, up tilt combos into it if she hits you with the back side of up tilt, and can also combo into her bair, but like with our up tilt > uair, its timing is tight and is % dependent. At mid % where uair won't kill, she may go for an up B instead, so try and airdodge that if possible. Be wary of directional airdodging her uair left or right when landing, because she can punish you after with her up B. When dealing with her uair onslaught from up high, keep an eye out on a possible up B finisher which you should try to airdodge. |
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During advantage, watch how she uses knight to cover herself while landing, even if she's off stage. She's a sitting duck while charging it during disadvantage though, so can either punish her during it or patiently wait it out. Nayru's Love is another landing option she uses during disadvantage of course, so stay mid ranged. |
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Likewise, she can do d-tilt > fair at various percents, so be ready to DI. Thankfully, her d-tilt doesn't hit our ledge hang for her to sweetspot fair us after except during ledge hang hurtbox shifting (and perhaps on stages with slanted edges like Lylat or Yoshi's Story), though the d-tilt may 2 frame. On platform stages, she can summon a knight on a plat, and d-tilt you up to the other plat for you to get hit by it, so keep in mind. Her dash attack is one of the fastest in the game, so just remember she may use it to close the distance and quickly react with your d-tilt/f-tilt, nair/fair, jab, or shield. She can also dash attack with a fully charged phantom that will shield break along with f-smash, fair, or dair, so don't sit in your shield during this to avoid getting punished in the worst way. Even sitting in shield against her during the few seconds of respawn invincibility isn't a good idea, especially if she immediately starts charging a knight during her fresh stock. Move around during that time. |
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Her floatiness also makes it easier to catch her landings with an attack, whether it's timing our anti-airs or just doing dash attack or one of our smashes when she lands next to you from ledge or something. If she ledge jumps though, shield if you expect a quick knight summon, anti-air if you expect an aerial, or if she drifts toward you, expect a Nayru’s Love which you can punish with f-smash if quick enough or otherwise just shield and then punish. 2 framing her tends to work best by doing off stage attacks around the ledge; doing said attacks after falling next to the ledge, or ledge drop double jump> aerial/special. Basically, her disadvantage is pretty bad with how slow she falls as a floaty. She may try to circumvent this with fastfall + neutral airdodge, so pay attention to her habits, and while there is the get-off-me options of her Nayru's Love and lightning kicks, it'll still be something that'll get her punished if she over-relies on them and you read her. |
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p.s. You don’t really get to turn your brain off with plasma against her when she’s at ledge in any situation, as you’re always at risk of getting reversaled by an aggressive up B which forces you to play reactionary at all times. Even in advantage, neutral B her only as a mixup. |
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Going into aerials, her nair is a multi-purpose combo tool much like our own and thus her most damaging out of shield option, and is similarly weaker on the back hit. It can be a potent edgeguarding option due to being longlasting (can even trap you long enough for a prior fully charged knight to connect its attack), but again, try to act with a nair of your own if it comes to that. With good drift, her nair can combo into a lightning kick, but as a caveat, her nair can knock you backward instead of forward if she drifts too heavily, resulting in you avoiding a combo, and if she drifts too little, a nair followup will not be possible. Likewise, if they initially nair far away enough from you or if she moves by you too fast, it's possible that you can fall out of her nair altogether. |
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===== Disadvantage ===== |
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For other aerials, her lightning kicks on their own can combo into her up B for powerful shield pressure. Even the sour hit of those aerials you should tech so you don't get jablocked after and hit by a lightning kick which is easier for her against big bodies such as us. Her fair and bair sweetspots only last 1 frame and the hitboxes aren't very big, so a Zelda that don't have mastery over their moves will land the sour hit more often. Her fair/bair when used as a landing aerial can sometimes low profile a grab, so wouldn't try to shield grab after shielding those moves. When shielding her fair/bair, watch if she crosses up your shield with it and punish her end lag. |
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Ledgetrapping is when she's at her strongest. Phase 4 and 5 of the knight can hit ledge hang. To avoid ledgetraps, regrab the ledge; Zelda doesn't cover the regrab due to the knight forcing a timed ledge option. Can also time a getup attack to get through the knight's attack with intangibility. Her f-smash is another ledgetrap move to watch out for, as it covers everything but ledge hanging and ledge jump, tho knight covers those options. |
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Keep in mind that her up angle f-tilt along with u-tilt are potent anti-airs similar to our own, and with how her u-tilt lingers, can sometimes even catch you while neutral airdodging down. You don't want to be right above her anyway when trying to recover on stage from up high because of her uair, so retreat to ledge when needed if nothing else or if you're not in a position for another vertical burst option like dair. Speaking of her uair, up tilt combos into it if she hits you with the back side of up tilt, and can also combo into her bair, but like with our up tilt > uair, its timing is tight and is % dependent. At mid % where uair won't kill, she may go for an up B instead, so try and airdodge that if possible. Be wary of directional airdodging her uair left or right when landing, because she can punish you after with her up B. When dealing with her uair onslaught from up high, keep an eye out on a possible up B finisher which you should try to airdodge. |
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Her dair, aside from spiking off stage (watch out if she's up high and has summoned a knight to strike from ledge that'll put you into her path to spike, though this is harder for her to do at higher %), can send into jablock at lower %. Around 70% or so, her dair can combo into bair or up B, and around 90% and above, her dair combos into uair which will kill us. Don't jump too much to avoid pressure where she can get a free dair on us on stage and sometimes send us into a knight's path. Like our uair, hers can hit someone on a top platform from a shorthop, and be used to hit multiple times with a lower plat. It can combo out of her up throw too, but is very weight and % dependent. Needless to say, her uair can combo off a phantom strike too with her being below you, but usually bair is a more desirable followup from phantom. |
Her dair, aside from spiking off stage (watch out if she's up high and has summoned a knight to strike from ledge that'll put you into her path to spike, though this is harder for her to do at higher %), can send into jablock at lower %. Around 70% or so, her dair can combo into bair or up B, and around 90% and above, her dair combos into uair which will kill us. Don't jump too much to avoid pressure where she can get a free dair on us on stage and sometimes send us into a knight's path. Like our uair, hers can hit someone on a top platform from a shorthop, and be used to hit multiple times with a lower plat. It can combo out of her up throw too, but is very weight and % dependent. Needless to say, her uair can combo off a phantom strike too with her being below you, but usually bair is a more desirable followup from phantom. |
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Likewise, she can do d-tilt > fair at various percents, so be ready to DI. Thankfully, her d-tilt doesn't hit our ledge hang for her to sweetspot fair us after except during ledge hang hurtbox shifting (and perhaps on stages with slanted edges like Lylat or Yoshi's Story), though the d-tilt may 2 frame. On platform stages, she can summon a knight on a plat, and d-tilt you up to the other plat for you to get hit by it, so keep in mind. Her dash attack is one of the fastest in the game, so just remember she may use it to close the distance and quickly react with your d-tilt/f-tilt, nair/fair, jab, or shield. She can also dash attack with a fully charged phantom that will shield break along with f-smash, fair, or dair, so don't sit in your shield during this to avoid getting punished in the worst way. Even sitting in shield against her during the few seconds of respawn invincibility isn't a good idea, especially if she immediately starts charging a knight during her fresh stock. Move around during that time. |
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Her nair is a multi-purpose combo tool much like our own and thus her most damaging out of shield option, and is similarly weaker on the back hit. It can be a potent edgeguarding option due to being longlasting (can even trap you long enough for a prior fully charged knight to connect its attack), but again, try to act with a nair of your own if it comes to that. With good drift, her nair can combo into a lightning kick, but as a caveat, her nair can knock you backward instead of forward if she drifts too heavily, resulting in you avoiding a combo, and if she drifts too little, a nair followup will not be possible. Likewise, if they initially nair far away enough from you or if she moves by you too fast, it's possible that you can fall out of her nair altogether. |
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Her f-smash is a multi-hit that you don't want to try and spot dodge, or neutral getup from ledge or ledge jump like if she's charging it. If spaced right, you can punish it with skewer after shielding, though frame-wise is not a true punish. It's similar to our f-smash in having relatively low end lag, so respect it. If she prepares an f-smash along with a phantom strike when edgeguarding you, stay below for awhile, and plank her with uair underneath if possible. Her up smash may be the least used. It doesn't even hit platforms until the very last hit and one of her laggiest moves. Still, you don't want to challenge it with something like our dair, and it comes out of shield as fast as her lightning kicks, so you'll want to space your tilts on her shield as usual. Her down smash is fast however, and a fast edgeguard option when standing at the ledge, so recover low if you expect it, or up B poke if feeling lucky. Her d-smash has a good launch angle but not very much knockback, so is possible to survive it, but watch out for when she uses it on stage which can lead to tech situations, and mixup your tech movement. D-smash is also the fastest way for her to launch you off stage into the swing of phantom, and has a 20% chance of causing tripping. |
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For other aerials, her lightning kicks on their own can combo into her up B for powerful shield pressure. Even the sour hit of those aerials you should tech so you don't get jablocked after and hit by a lightning kick which is easier for her against big bodies such as us. Her fair and bair sweetspots only last 1 frame and the hitboxes aren't very big, so a Zelda that don't have mastery over their moves will land the sour hit more often. Her fair/bair when used as a landing aerial can sometimes low profile a grab, so wouldn't try to shield grab after shielding those moves. When shielding her fair/bair, watch if she crosses up your shield with it and punish her end lag. |
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For her grab game, respect her pivot grab and don't make committal approaches too often like if she's backed into a corner or you face a Zelda that's competent at grabs. If you wait to shield a fully charged phantom, her grabbing will guarantee that you get hit by it. Her grab itself is slow though. Her f-throw can combo off a fully charged phantom, her d-throw is her bnb combo like most characters which you can DI but mix it up (such as DI'ing in instead of away to make her fair/bair hit on sour instead of sweetspot, and also keep in mind her d-throw gives you little time to react to tech when it launches you on a lower platform), her up throw can combo into fullhop nair and situationally uair as mentioned as well as a setup for potential kills at top platforms like with our up throw, and her up and back throws are kill throws at high %. Up throw killing though depends on weight, stage blastzone ceiling height, and DI, but if she uses up throw earlier to combo, it'll stale it. Her back throw kills earlier with that said, so remember if you're at high % and she's cornered which may be intentional for her to grab and b-throw you, though if she uses b-throw earlier for an attempted gimp, kill, or sending into a knight's path, it'll stale. |
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Her f-smash is a multi-hit that you don't want to try and spot dodge, or neutral getup from ledge or ledge jump like if she's charging it. It's similar to our f-smash in having relatively low end lag, so respect it. If she prepares an f-smash along with a phantom strike when edgeguarding, stay below for awhile, and plank her with uair underneath if possible. Her up smash may be the least used. It doesn't even hit platforms until the very last hit and one of her laggiest moves. Still, you don't want to challenge it with something like our dair, and it comes out of shield as fast as her lightning kicks, so you'll want to space your tilts on her shield as usual. Her down smash is fast however, and a fast edgeguard option when standing at the ledge, so recover low if you expect it, or up B poke if feeling lucky. Her d-smash has a good launch angle but not very much knockback, so is possible to survive it, but watch out for when she uses it on stage which can lead to tech situations, and mixup your tech movement. D-smash is also the fastest way for her to launch you off stage into the swing of phantom. |
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For her grab game, respect her pivot grab and don't make committal approaches too often like if she's backed into a corner or you face a Zelda that's competent at grabs. If you wait to shield a fully charged phantom, her grabbing will guarantee that you get hit by it. Her grab itself is slow though. Her f-throw can combo off a fully charged phantom, her d-throw is her bnb combo like most characters which you can DI but mix it up (such as DI'ing in instead of away to make her fair/bair hit on sour instead of sweetspot, and also keep in mind her d-throw gives you little time to react to tech when it launches you on a lower platform), her up throw can combo into fullhop nair and situationally uair as mentioned as well as a setup for potential kills at top platforms like with our up throw, and her up and back throws are kill throws at high %. Up throw killing though depends on weight, stage blast zone ceiling height, and DI, but if she uses up throw earlier to combo, it'll stale it. Her back throw kills earlier with that said, so remember if you're at high % and she's cornered which may be intentional for her to grab and b-throw you, though if she uses b-throw earlier for an attempted gimp, kill, or sending into a knight's path, it'll stale. |
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With how her recovery works as a trap character (and keeping you from going off stage against her with her knight and Nayru's Love), ledge trapping is preferable to edgeguarding her, though keep in mind she can do a ledgehop aerial such as nair, side B from off stage, and plank with her uair or up B poke like us to keep you on your toes while attempting to ledgetrap, so don't let those catch you off guard; her up B poke also leaves herself more exposed to a strong attack like when we do ours, so punish when possible. Found it's also good to face away from ledge while shielding her up B, and then up smash OoS, f-tilt/f-air to cover ledge roll, etc, although if she does an up B poke around ledge, a spaced 2-frame can punish it. All of her normals besides d-tilt are punishable by our nair OoS, though her landing aerials are too safe on shield, so neutral reset there. Her neutral B's similarly punishable if shielded up close, but gotta hold till the end of the move. Her rapid jab finisher, u-smash, point-blank neutral B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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If she has a knight ready and you're off stage, fastfall or airdodge while drifting forward to recover low and avoid the strike. Don’t always recover low though like in the case of her going off stage to dair spike; you'll have to delay your up B in which case. |
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If she's nearby charging a knight and you're shielding, can spot dodge if you time it right, roll behind her before she finishes getting her knight out, or perhaps better yet, fullhop or DJ OoS and do a fastfall landing aerial on her from above; namely with nair, uair, dair, skewer fastfall if lucky, bair if facing backwards, some falling plasma, or fullhop into a fastall empty landing for a tomahawk grab. F-air may also be possible, but might be harder to time in this instance as a multi-hit move. |
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If she's traveling through the air (like off stage) while charging the knight, it will catch onto ledges behind her, even if she doesn't land on the floor herself. She typically uses it to cover two bases when edgeguarding; the knight to cover ledge, while going low herself to catch a low recovery, but when recovering, you can defend yourself with attacks such as nair or uair (try to do so before she does something like neutral B that'll knock you back or worse send you into the path of the phantom strike) before using your up B to get back to the ledge, or if you use Wing Blitz early enough, will stop her in her tracks. Also watch out for nair or Nayru's Love possibly launching you to the side of the stage, and be ready to tech so you don't get stage spiked. All and all, mix up how you deal with the knight and recovering against her; it's a mind game battle more than anything. |
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* Still pay attention as to what charge state her knight is in when you decide to jump or otherwise evade it, because if she charges it to one of the higher states when you decide to wait and jump, it'll be a lot harder to dodge the strike due to the knight having more reach in its attack the more it's charged up. This mainly applies if you’re a bit further away from her and not close up. See the knight’s hitboxes here to get an idea, where you normally have to do at least a double jump (not so much IDJ) to get over the fully charged strike. |
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Like with neutral B, if her up B hits you off stage when low, it can send you upward into the path of a phantom strike. She can also use up B to snipe after knocking you off stage with a phantom strike in order to finish you, though since she can't recover herself afterward, she'll only go for it when significantly behind in % or during a last stock end of game situation. She can ledge cancel with her up B as well, typically to position herself for a quick edgeguard, so be ready. |
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Lastly, with Din's Fire, remember that it has a big delay from the spark and from the burst. Simply reacting with a jump, fastfall, or airdodge will do the trick. Zelda will try to play mind games by pretending to hit you directly but then cover low's or high's depending on if they think you are going to jump or fall, but Din's Fire is such a committal move, it's hard for them to use it optimally unless you're easy to read. |
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Zelda relies on retreating, a lot of dash backs. The main goal is to understand how she uses knight and respect her u-tilt. Other retreating options she uses are f-smash and pivot grab. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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During knight charge, as soon as the helmet is on (semi-final stage), Zelda can't release it early or mix up her timing; only before the helmet appears. |
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Zelda multihits- f-smash (5 hits), u-smash (7 hits), nair (5 hits), neutral B (4 hits), d-throw (5 hits) |
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Nair through Din's Fire. |
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In neutral, being out of knight's range will usually be better than shielding (not only do you want to conserve shield health but she can punish shield with grab during the final charge phase where she gets to move around unless you're much further away from her) or jumping over (which she can punish with an aerial or anti-air). Even if further away, while the knight's in end lag, this is your opportunity to close the gap since her neutral becomes a lot worse without it. Once you understand how she uses knight, her best move by far is u-tilt which combos into itself and aerials. |
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The first hit of Farore's Wind can be DI'd down and away/in to escape the second hit. This will force her to read your DI in a 33/33/33 whether you move right, left or stay stationary. |
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Ledgetrapping is when she's at her strongest. Phase 4 and 5 of the knight can hit ledge hang. To avoid ledgetraps, regrab the ledge; Zelda doesn't cover the regrab due to the knight forcing a timed ledge option. Can also time a getup attack to get through the knight's attack with intangibility. Her f-smash is another ledgetrap move to watch out for, as it covers everything but ledge hanging and ledge jump, tho knight covers those options. |
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If you connect an SPR on her at all, don't do the jump release in hope for an aerial setup (unless you’re at higher % than her where she can mash out), as she can counter most attempts with her aerials & specials. |
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During advantage, watch how she uses knight to cover herself while landing, even if she's off stage. She's a sitting duck while charging it during disadvantage though, so can either punish her during it or patiently wait it out. Nayru's Love is another landing option she uses during disadvantage of course, so stay mid ranged. |
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Her fair, bair, uair, and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Her floatiness also makes it easier to catch her landings with an attack, whether it's timing our anti-airs or just doing dash attack or one of our smashes when she lands next to you from ledge or something. If she ledge jumps though, shield if you expect a quick knight summon, anti-air if you expect an aerial, or if she drifts toward you, expect a Nayru’s Love which you can punish with f-smash if quick enough or otherwise just shield and then punish (shorthop SPR OoS is a more true punish since her neutral B's -25 on shield, along with her u-smash and ledge getup attack for that matter). 2 framing her tends to work best by doing off stage attacks around the ledge; doing said attacks after falling next to the ledge, or ledge drop/ledgehop > aerial/special. Basically, her disadvantage is pretty bad with how slow she falls as a floaty. She may try to circumvent this with fastfall + neutral airdodge, so pay attention to her player’s habits, and while there is the get-off-me options of her Nayru's Love and lightning kicks, it'll still be something that'll get her punished for trying if you read her right. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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p.s. You don’t really get to turn your brain off with plasma against her when she’s at ledge in any situation, as you’re always at risk of getting reversaled by an aggressive up B which forces you to play reactionary at all times. Neutral B her in advantage only as a mixup. |
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Her rapid jab finisher is punished by f-smash OoS, and all of her normals besides d-tilt are punishable by at least nair OoS, though her landing aerials are too safe on shield, so neutral reset there. Her neutral B's similarly punishable if shielded up close, but gotta hold till the end of the move on the 4th hit, and since it's -25, you can shorthop SPR OoS as a response; same goes for her up smash and ledge getup attack which are -25. Her up B on the ground is -29, making it punishable by f-smash OoS. In the air however it's only -19, and can be even safer if she spaces it. |
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Zelda multihits- f-smash (5 hits), u-smash (7 hits), nair (5 hits), neutral B (4 hits), d-throw (5 hits) |
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Her rapid jab finisher, up smash, point-blank neutral B, up B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Ridley kill confirm: |
Ridley kill confirm: |
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With ZSS, she'll spend most of her time in the air, so camp her from the ground with your anti-airs rather than chase her and avoid her nair and zair combo starters, having your up tilt, up angle f-tilt, up smash, nair, and such ready, along with d-tilt to cover her overextensions; otherwise just knowing how to react to Flip Jump/Kick with practice or reading it when she’s in disadvantage, along with her dair to some extent. |
With ZSS, she'll spend most of her time in the air, so camp her from the ground with your anti-airs rather than chase her and avoid her nair and zair combo starters, having your up tilt, up angle f-tilt, up smash, nair, and such ready, along with d-tilt to cover her overextensions; otherwise just knowing how to react to Flip Jump/Kick with practice or reading it when she’s in disadvantage, along with her dair to some extent. |
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Flip Jump has intangibility on frames 3 through 12. Visually, it ends when she reaches the apex of her flip, is on her way down, and around when you start seeing the blue afterimages (aka when she can kick), so don’t attack when her flip is on the way up. Timely abuse Ridley up smash and uair against it; if you're not early enough, then patiently wait till near the end of it and punish. Remember too that ZSS loses Flip Jump after using it until she touches the ground, which can be useful in off stage situations where she may be gimped, though edgeguard her quickly since she has two tethers to work with. If she tethers, can try and do an off-stage or Crouch Ledge Slip nair/fair on her, or SPR/jump plasma if she tethers high, depending. She can easily jump over charged Plasma with Flip Jump, so be careful with it, using one or two fireballs as bait, or Flickshot Plasma when retreating if you have room. Can shield Flip Kick, but with how safe it is on shield, she'll be away before you can punish as she bounces off with it. Reading/evading is the better option with how much end lag it has. In other words, pay attention to her panic options. If it's not Flip Jump, it may be dair, but that at least is more reactable, and easily punished when dodged. Dair is arguably easier to bait out too |
Flip Jump has intangibility on frames 3 through 12. Visually, it ends when she reaches the apex of her flip, is on her way down, and around when you start seeing the blue afterimages (aka when she can kick), so don’t attack when her flip is on the way up. Timely abuse Ridley up smash and uair against it; if you're not early enough, then patiently wait till near the end of it and punish. Remember too that ZSS loses Flip Jump after using it until she touches the ground, which can be useful in off stage situations where she may be gimped, though edgeguard her quickly since she has two tethers to work with. If she tethers, can try and do an off-stage or Crouch Ledge Slip nair/fair on her, or SPR/jump plasma if she tethers high, depending. She can easily jump over charged Plasma with Flip Jump, so be careful with it, using one or two fireballs as bait, or Flickshot Plasma when retreating if you have room. Can shield Flip Kick, but with how safe it is on shield, she'll be away before you can punish as she bounces off with it. Reading/evading is the better option with how much end lag it has. In other words, pay attention to her panic options. If it's not Flip Jump, it may be dair, but that at least is more reactable, and easily punished when dodged. Dair is arguably easier to bait out too. Surprisingly, she can’t airdodge fastfall too well, making her disadvantage pretty linear when she doesn’t have Flip Jump available, and is otherwise forced to dair or something. |
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Other things to note about Flip Jump/Kick: |
Other things to note about Flip Jump/Kick: |
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Aside from her nair and zair, watch out for her Blaster combo starters. Her d-smash/Blaster > up B Boost Kick kills us around 90%. If you see her charging her Blaster, can shield it if you do a dash shield, then punish with an OoS option. If they wall you out with zair's, something like a Wing Blitz forward from mid stage can be a decent mixup option to catch their landing. It can also go through Blaster, though wouldn’t rely too much on the timing. Our tilts, nair, bair, and even a single plasma beats out her Blaster too. |
Aside from her nair and zair, watch out for her Blaster combo starters. Her d-smash/Blaster > up B Boost Kick kills us around 90%. If you see her charging her Blaster, can shield it if you do a dash shield, then punish with an OoS option. If they wall you out with zair's, something like a Wing Blitz forward from mid stage can be a decent mixup option to catch their landing. It can also go through Blaster, though wouldn’t rely too much on the timing. Our tilts, nair, bair, and even a single plasma beats out her Blaster too, though wouldn't do so with f-tilt with how much its clank end lag is. |
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She has hard to punish shield pressure (even with her rising aerial, but parries help to deal with that) but little shield damage and poke (aside from her fair which can poke due to being a 2-hit move and may need to shield tilt that), so can shield well against ZSS aside from Blaster and tether grab which is more reactable than regular Samus's; move around though. Most of what ZSS can do on shield is still relatively safe, especially zair and nair. If she tries to go for an aerial, you can react with an up smash or nair OoS as a get-off-me for rising aerials (her fair and bair). Do not try to up smash ZSS’s nair OoS however, especially a landing nair. It's hugely disjointed and safe. Also watch for her jabbing on your shield, as it's difficult to punish and spammable after a landing aerial due to it being a frame 1 move, though her jab 3 you can punish |
She has hard to punish shield pressure (even with her rising aerial, but parries help to deal with that) but little shield damage and poke (aside from her fair which can poke due to being a 2-hit move and may need to shield tilt that), so can shield well against ZSS aside from Blaster and tether grab which is more reactable than regular Samus's; move around though. Most of what ZSS can do on shield is still relatively safe, especially zair and nair. If she tries to go for an aerial, you can react with an up smash or nair OoS as a get-off-me for rising aerials (her fair and bair). Do not try to up smash ZSS’s nair OoS however, especially a landing nair. It's hugely disjointed and safe. Also watch for her jabbing on your shield, as it's difficult to punish and spammable after a landing aerial due to it being a frame 1 move, though her jab 3 you can punish fine, or even just her jab 1 or jab 2 if she stops there to mix you up. Regardless, if she bounces off your shield with Flip Jump, you can follow her aerial movement with an OoS aerial if quick enough. |
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* Also watch out for Boost Kick OoS, and to DI the move, mostly DI down and in during the multi-hits, but the higher up you are when hit by her up B, the further out you must DI. DI out on the first hit may help you fall out of it. |
* Also watch out for Boost Kick OoS, and to DI the move, mostly DI down and in during the multi-hits, but the higher up you are when hit by her up B, the further out you must DI. DI out on the first hit may help you fall out of it. |
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While she can rack up damage on us pretty easily, she struggles to kill without a stun to a smash attack or Boost Kick, so at high percent, keep your head and stay focused. |
While she can rack up damage on us pretty easily, she struggles to kill without a stun to a smash attack or Boost Kick, so at high percent, keep your head and stay focused. |
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ZSS prefers to set up ledgetraps as opposed to edgeguards. None of her moves can hit you on ledge, but getting up is a different story. Her quick, low lag, big hitboxes make it hard to get back on stage. The biggest moves to watch out for are her grab, side B, and |
ZSS prefers to set up ledgetraps as opposed to edgeguards. None of her moves can hit you on ledge, but getting up is a different story. Her quick, low lag, big hitboxes make it hard to get back on stage. The biggest moves to watch out for are her grab, side B, neutral B, d-smash, and bair. They can all lead to another ledgetrap situation or even a kill in side B and Blaster's case. The short range of her aerials (barring nair) makes our ledge jump to nair a decently safe option, because it can snuff out some aerial options and provides decent protection, but it's important to watch for her up smash, nair, and other active aerials like fair. It’s important to mix up your ledge game too, with ledge drop > jump > fair, and whatnot. It just depends on the player and their habits, so be sure to pay attention, and above all, stay calm. |
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===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
===== Miscellaneous and frame data ===== |
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Even with her great speed, she still has to commit when she dashes in, and the key to understanding how she runs away or plays disadvantage is her flip jump. Once you have an understanding, hitting her becomes easier; this includes how she uses it from ledge where she can use it defensively or aggressively, so is suggested to give up a little more stage to keep the corner pressure going. |
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ZSS's normals and side B are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, as is point-blank neutral B. Her jab 3 is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, and her dash attack will cross you up when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly with f-smash or maybe Skewer (shorthop turnaround Skewer OoS for better frame advantage & positioning). U-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, and ledge getup attack can even be punished by our f-smash when shielded (turnaround f-smash in dash attack's case). |
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Her main throw is f-throw which sets up a tech chase starting at 18%, though to avoid being tech chased by this, you can DI up. |
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Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so go for a neutral reset there. The Flip Jump if she does the kick is punishable on shield with whatever, but have to react quick and catch her landing. It's a matter of knowing or reacting to the direction she drifts after hitting your shield with it. |
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ZSS multihits- f-smash (2 hits), u-smash (~6 hits), fair (2 hits), side B (5 hits) |
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Her dair can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there, and again, same with her d-smash. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup |
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Our nair can either trade with or beat her uair, as our aerial hits first from below. Her uair comes out a couple frames sooner than our nair though, so have to anticipate and time it. |
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Aside from maybe grab, her u-tilt, f-smash, nair, and Flip Kick are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag. |
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We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair. |
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Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup. |
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With ZSS, can also move a lot and challenge her in the air, especially when she goes for flip kick (given that you're not off stage) because if you try challenging it from the ground, miss, and get hit you're buried but if you're in the air you won't be buried. Still tech it though. |
With ZSS, can also move a lot and challenge her in the air, especially when she goes for flip kick (given that you're not off stage) because if you try challenging it from the ground, miss, and get hit you're buried but if you're in the air you won't be buried. Still tech it though. |
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Her dash attack (dash back first if she crosses you up) & flip kick (dash whatever direction she's drifting) are also shield punishable by d-smash. |
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ZSS's normals and side B are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, as is point-blank neutral B. Her jab 3 is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, and her dash attack (-36) will cross you up when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly with f-smash or maybe Skewer (shorthop turnaround Skewer OoS for better frame advantage & positioning). U-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, and ledge getup attack can even be punished by our f-smash when shielded (turnaround f-smash in dash attack's case). |
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Her jab 1/2/3, u-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, Flip Kick, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her ledge getup attack is also punished by f-smash OoS. |
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Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so go for a neutral reset there. The Flip Jump if she does the kick is punishable on shield with whatever, but have to react quick and catch her landing. It's a matter of knowing or reacting to the direction she drifts after hitting your shield with it. |
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Her dash attack (dash back first if she crosses you up) & flip kick (dash whatever direction she's drifting) are also shield punishable by d-smash. Her jab 1/2/3, u-tilt, dash attack, f-smash, Flip Kick, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her ledge getup attack is also punished by f-smash OoS. |
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Her grab is 15 frames in startup and 33 frames in end lag, allowing a potential whiff punish with |
Her grab is 15 frames in startup and 33 frames in end lag, allowing a potential whiff punish with Skewer, Wing Blitz forward, and such, and since her shield grab would be frame 19, could dash attack her shield and still spot-dodge it or jump, or mix in shield jumping or Double Shield Cancel fullhop to bait a whiff. Like regular Samus though, watch out for up B as her fastest possible OoS option, and only dash attack her shield if you expect her to go for a grab. |
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Also, zair's 30 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
Also, zair's 30 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. |
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* u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-82%) |
* u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-82%) |
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* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-86%) |
* u-tilt > double jump uair (83-86%) |
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* If you're waiting to catch her landing with u-tilt, watch to see if she flip jumps first and act accordingly. |
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Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info. |
Major credit to Ridcord for much of this info. |
Latest revision as of 01:38, 7 December 2024
Losing
Wonderwing can be grabbed if timed right like OoS, but also watch how he uses it to recover or as a combo breaker. If shielding, can also do a turnaround punish like some other enemy burst options; turnaround f-smash, skewer if lucky (shorthop turnaround skewer OoS for better frame advantage & positioning), and u-tilt works too with how unsafe it is on shield. Overall, watch out for him using Wonderwing when he’s in any form of disadvantage, a neutral mixup, and even advantage like when he puts you in a tech chase or if you miss tech.
Banjo d-throw buries like K Rool's, but for not as long, so can escape quick. Banjo knows this though, so he may position to attack in the air, or u-smash if you wait too long. Mix up your timing, tho mashing fast followed by airdodge can work sometimes, especially if at high %.
While Banjo can edgeguard with fair (which is surprisingly safe on shield compared to his other aerials), he gets more out of ledgetrapping with his projectiles which can also gimp. With a lingering grenade, time your ledge getup; not too early or too late. If he does a fullhop grenade, can getup and shield it, then attack from below if quick enough. If you're both on stage and he does a fullhop grenade, can fullhop nair/fair or shorthop uair his blindspot.
When Kazooie uses eggs to camp you out, make a plan of approach if Banjo's in the lead, whether in the air or from the ground. Eggs don't do much damage on their own, so remain calm while shielding or timing your approach, but still space well with your attacks. Flickshot Plasma may work to counter-camp if you have enough space, but remember he has Wonderwing to get through your wall. If you're aligned with Banjo while he's in Breegull Blaster mode, it can be possible to skewer him.
While is likely to beat our dair, Banjo’s uair is the weakest of his aerials, making it easier to land from above, especially on platform stages. If you have the opportunity to recover this way, do so to avoid his ledgetrapping. Banjo’s dair hits us under a platform that he lands on with it, so be ready to shield underneath.
Exploit his recovery. His up B is like a mix of Charizard and Sonic's; can triple jump, use a spring, and uses side B to recover. Going off the edge may be risky if he recovers high with side B, so can wait to Plasma camp him or catch his landing, and if he’s at a lower altitude when using side B to recover, can catch him with SPR if timed right. If he uses up B on stage, try to anti-air him up high or wait to catch his landing. When he recovers low, he's more vulnerable to aerials, spikes, or gimps.
Other things: When Banjo uses the breegull blaster, hold shield. You'll eventually notice they either shoot which you can punish, or they'll start to run to you to do something else.
From further away it doesn't send you locked in a long hitstun, so some distances make them think they can get in for free, but you’re actually ready to punish. Stay actionable if you can, to not get hit by Wonderwing.
If they do nair combos, if you can SDI behind. If on platform, try to SDI to fall off plat. If they bury you, sometimes not mashing will help you not get hit by u-tilt.
Neutral: Nairs and other aerials beat eggs in the air, while extending the frames it’s active, but also makes it more punishable. You want to slowly get in, while making them afraid of your burst range, so be sure they will probably start with grenading you.
p.s. At 70+%, Banjo can do grenade > wonderwing as a kill confirm, so be more wary of grenades at that point.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Banjo up smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Banjo rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. His other normals besides u-tilt is punished by at least nair OoS (some others by our other OoS aerials and shield grab), his gentleman jab & rapid jab finisher/d-tilt/smashes/landing dair/ledge getup attack when shielded is punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his 8 hit u-smash when shielded is punished by our f/d-smash or shorthop skewer OoS.
Besides fair which was mentioned as a safe on shield aerial, all his other landing aerials we can punish with our OoS aerials/shield grab for the most part (his nair is 8 hits), including u-smash OoS if he's still above you. Banjo's neutral B is negative enough on shield for you to forward nair OoS as an approach if that's what it takes to get to him. His grenades are even less safe on shield.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (90-93%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (94-104%)
Overall, shield plenty in this matchup, walk and dash shielding included.
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Losing
Gameplan
While in the air, Bayonetta can:
- Do two Witch Twist
- Can jump after each Witch Twist unless a double jump is used prior.
- Can jump cancel Witch Twist to increase distance and keep the double jump (and then use it after the last Witch Twist).
- Do one After Burner Kick
- Can do another After Burner Kick for a limited time after landing the first one.
- Cannot do another After Burner Kick after hitting your shield.
If Bayonetta is hit while in the air, she regains one After Burner Kick and one Witch Twist. If Bayonetta activates bats within from an attack, it doesn't count as her being hit. Meaning that she cannot regain resources already used.
During Heel Slide, Bayonetta has to hold down the special button to get the second hit. If Bayonetta holds down an attack she will use her guns to attack. This will happen before Heel Slide's second hit. Use this to your advantage and either respect or punish the attack. Though do be wary the Bayonetta can still hold down the special button to get guns then release before the second hit comes out.
- Shielding the attack during the slide will make it impossible for the Bayonetta to get the second hit.
Ridley can crouch to avoid attacks from Bayonetta or abuse crouch canceling to escape combos with SDI. If Ridley crouches around ledge roll distance, and if a Bayonetta does ledge drop into After Burner Kick, the attack will whiff. Ridley then can react and punish with an up tilt combo or an up smash kill. Ridley can also use crouching to dodge her back aerial completely or her Bullet Climax from afar.
Up Tilt is a two-parter move, meaning even if the first hit attacks shield, the second hit can still connect. If the first hit connects on its first active frame it is -19 on shield with 3 frames of shieldstun. The second hit is on frame 13, meaning that there is 3 frames that you can act. Find out how Ridley can punish Bayonetta up tilt on shield.
From a rising short hop all of Bayonetta's aerials, besides down air, forward air 2 (unless forward air 1 hits shield) and forward air 3, will be over before she lands and will autocancel. Because of this, she can do either a Witch Twist or a After Burner Kick before landing. Unless the Bayonetta uses bullet arts after the aerials, then she will always suffer recovery frames instead.
SDI down and away against most Bayo combos, or up and in if you're diagonally above her. If they start adapting, then randomize your SDI. Can even SDI out out against a Bayo who has you near the blast zone, because she expects you to SDI in. Also, ABK doesn't kill at high % with DI away if you get there.
After you successfully SDI out, you fastfall, and if you see the opportunity to reversal, you take it; punish her recovery frames, but watch out for any sudden ABK downwards, dair, or Witch Time.
Otherwise anticipate Witch Time & Bat Within like usual, just as you would with Mythra Foresight. Like Mythra dash attack, always jump away from or shield & OoS punish Bayo's heel slide, stopping one of her main combo starters in its tracks, though remember it has a 2nd kick at the end.
Her guns you mainly need to watch out for when off stage so you don't get sniped. Either fastfall, recover high if she's charging neutral B, or airdodge.
Her smashes are slow, but watch out for d-smash as a potential 2 frame/spike, it being able to hit us under platforms, and its shield damage.
Her recovery's a bit tricky to take advantage of due to how she often bypasses the ledge, rarely ever ledge grabbing, and can get reversed if too aggressive against her off stage. Better to ledgetrap while hanging back an extra bit so you don't get hit by any of her above-ledge attacks like aerial side B, and punish with a powerful move.
Bayo's back roll low profiles as she does the knee slide, so keep in mind when going for u-tilt; she'll also stay crouched a bit if she does a linger Bullet Arts after her dair, so wait for that to finish before attempting a u-tilt for the u-tilt > uair kill confirm, or sneak in a skewer. Another thing, she leans forward a bit with the rapid jab finisher, so may need to shorthop back a bit with the skewer.
Other than that, Bayo isn't your usual SDI character where there is always “a correct SDI". If they are a good Bayo, you need to be more active and mix things up and try to have an idea of what she wants and deny it, be ready to airdodge if she tries to do incomplete f-air strings (dash walk SDI inputs helps against the complete f-air and some ABK stuff though), and sometimes even purposefully sneak behind her where you can get a reverse edgeguard. There’s also SDI’ing her u-tilt hits which can mess up some of her followups like fair or up B, and if they try to up B you twice, can either SDI up & in and then down & away, or wait till she does double up B on you as you SDI up & in.
Aside from shielding at ledge against Bayo’s that bypass ledge with ABK, there’s crouching > punishing her landing, though keep in mind she can still bair you. Also when edgeguarding, plasma beats ABK, but her up B goes through every fireball.
If you’re at high %, respect ABK more because of kill confirm setups (shield or crouch under it, gun, and fair), and keep Witch Time in mind too.
Advantage
At zero down throw into forward air isn't true. But down throw into up angle f-tilt will always be. If down throw is unstale, pummeling before throwing, will make the fair true. With max staling, down throw will always combo into fair if the Bayonetta is at 7% minimum.
Disadvantage
Bayonetta can two frame Ridley with:
- Down smash (only Madama's attack)
- A few move's bullet art attacks
- Note that bullet art hitboxes can NOT go through collisions like walls or floors.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Bayo's Heel Slide, ABK, and Witch Twist require about 2 SDI inputs. Heel Slide has 8 to 10 hitlag frames, ABK has 12 to 13 hitlag frames, and Witch Twist has 3 to 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Bayo's f-tilt and f-air have up to three hits like Sora's.
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to her also (also shield drop d-smash after her rapid jab finisher), while her jab 3 on shield is f-smash punishable. Her dash attack crosses you up on shield, so turnaround and punish accordingly. Her other normals (besides final part of her 3 hit u-tilt) and most specials are also punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab (point-blank neutral B even being f-smash punishable when shielded, along with her f/u-smash which are also mostly d-smash, shorthop skewer, or wing blitz forward punishable with shield pushback), but remember to shield all three hits of her f-tilt. Her landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset; that said, can catch her landing from up B usage if you act quick enough.
The 3rd & last hit of her nair can actually be OoS punished (is -16). Her neutral B (charged or not) is minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, jump OoS into SPR, or even f-smash if nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if she's at kill confirm %. The landing hitbox of her ABK is also pretty minus on shield (-33).
Gentlemen jab/rapid jab finisher, f-tilt 2/3, smashes, dair, point-blank neutral B, heel slide (first part), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished should she be at kill confirm %. If she whiffs a down B counter nearby, skewer punish.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (78-84%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (85-90%)
Major credit to smub, Sapphire, and Zant on the SDI details and some of the neutral stuff.
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Winning
Our running speed's a bit faster than Bowser's. Best to try to understand how he tries to use his speed against you.
Don't shield fire breath but punish from the air (even SPR works), or shorthop back plasma if you have space. Watch if he B-reverses, and don't ledge getup attack if he uses it to ledgetrap from mid range.
His fair in general and sliding up B OoS speak for themselves. Watch out for the shockwave of his dair though, and aside from what's obvious about down B, watch out for it on the ground, as he can headbutt you into it and slam you.
DI down & away from his side B grab, and remember it when he lands diagonally rather than sit in shield.
Aside from fair, his nair is the other main aerial to watch out for in neutral. Doing a fullhop landing with nair leads into combos & confirms (is -12 on shield). He also has a strong grab game like u-throw > nair (at mid/high %, our u-throw is also good due to his lack of reliable landing options), and f/b-throw that kill. Respect his grab range too.
Aside from fair edgeguarding, his down angle f-tilt can hit our ledge hang but doesn't 2 frame. We 2 frame him & ledgetrap him well though, but respect his ledge getup attack range.
With his tough guy, avoid using rapid jab on him when he's grounded like with Kazuya. Then there's the damage based armor of his tilts & smashes, the intangibility of his jab 1/2, tilts, uair, dair, and i-frames of his f-smash & u-smash.
Our tipper f-tilt and such can still beat out the damage based armor of his f-smash and so on, but have to be properly spaced.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His dair and down B hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there.
His d-tilt & u/d-smash are 2 hits. Nair is 3-4 hits, grounded up B is 8 hits, u-throw is 9 hits.
His dash attack, f-smash, d-smash, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
His normals besides jab 2 are punished by our OoS aerials, etc. Only his landing fair is too safe out of aerials. His u-tilt, d-tilt, DA (-33), f-smash (-32), d-smash 2 (-34), dair (-30), up B (-36), and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished.
Shorthop skewer OoS can work against Bowser f-smash despite it only being -32 due to the amount of end lag. Also, shield drop > d-smash works against his up B.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (111-114%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (115-123%)
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Losing
Disadvantage
The tools Ridley often uses to get out of disadvantage are airdodge, fastfall nair, fastfall alone, or using handy double jumps. Some others are fastfall bair and fair, but bair is not recommended due to Jr's disjointed aerials.
Dair can maybe work to get down to ledge but only as a mixup. Jr's Mario esque uair but disjointed is a really oppressive tool that will safely get us to 60% if not higher, so in this matchup getting juggled is the worst, while off stage disadvantage is a bit more bearable.
For off stage, would suggest either recovering low or high if there's enough space between Ridley and Jr. Otherwise he can just bop us with bair, fair, cannonball, or mechakoopa. Recovering straight is pretty iffy considering mechakoopa can stop SPR or WB forward, and of course cannon to deal with. Ridley can use fair and nair to try to protect his recovery attempts, uair for sharking and protecting himself low.
SPR for getting to ledge faster and may cheese a stock, but Jr shouldn't be close to ledge because of mechakoopa as a ledgeguard, and his fair and bair. We can also hold down while using WB up to poke through the stage.
Now to ledge, Ridley's main tool is just waiting for an option from the opponent since our ledge hang is pretty nice. Other options involve ledge drop nair, fair, and SPR or maybe Skewer if you're spicy enough, and ledge jump nair. Those are Ridley specific and our shark with uair and WB up but sharking is pretty niche especially considering mechakoopa.
The other options are what you expect but Ridley's ledge roll is quite bad, so be wary. Another note is be sure to tech Jr's fair, bair, and abandon ship when recovering low and watch out for when they up B (using the hammer after abandon ship) as a ledgetrap, and watch out for mechakoopa.
Advantage
Will mostly use d-tilt and then read what Jr does after, or just fair or nair after the d-tilt. We can also somewhat start advantage by d-throw which leads to many things; fair, f-tilt, dash cancel u-tilt, and bair. I wouldn't try to go for d-throw nair regrabs in this matchup personally, but at mid %, d-throw nair still works.
Jr will mix up their disadvantage with mechakoopa, kart dash, or some aerials. Mechakoopa is like a moving Snake grenade, and Jr can break our advantage by holding it and get us hit and then get something off of that, so be wary with it. Mechakoopa also breaks the SPR drag if it is out.
We also still have good anti-airs, like u-tilt which catches some jump-ins and aggressive out of juggle options like Jr dair or nair. With d-tilt we can also still read Jr or follow him from the one u-tilt into maybe another u-tilt at low %, or uair, nair, or fair depending on position.
We can also go somewhat air-to-air with fair, but it's laggy, so watch out. Of course we can get into advantage with nair mainly off of tech chases at mid % or reverse nair into dash attack, f-tilt, or bair.
The main option to get into advantage is pushing Jr off stage with plasma. Would preferably stay at plasma distance so that you can SPR getup attack or neutral getup. Catch a run in with u-smash, bair, or fair. U-tilt for ledge jump, angled f-tilt for Jr's hanging, and u-smash OoS for roll. Shielding is pretty good too if you fear post-up B hammer or kart dash, but these are nifty to punish, so just stay at plasma range.
If you try to edgeguard Jr off stage, gotta be ready to tech; mainly because of kart dash and Jr up B. We can yoink Jr out of kart dash with SPR and get a punish off of jump release, namely with fair, nair, and dair for position coverage.
Our nair has good coverage off stage that can force techs but doesn't have the best kill power. Fair has more power and range forward, but recovering low seems good for Jr, especially with side B & the up B explosion. Our bair is even more powerful and has great range but lacks any disjoints fair has but also forces techs (same as fair btw if Jr gets cought out of his up B by Ridley).
Fullhop dair can get low recovery attempts, but be wary of Jr up B explosion and side B hitbox. Timing is everything and keep teching in mind for both sides. Can spike Jr out of his getup attack with down angle WB and a well timed dair.
Don't forget if Jr has mechakoopa, he can threaten our advantage from a safe distance. It explodes later if Jr has it than if we have it, making somewhat hazardous interactions or combo potential if you know how to abuse it.
Jr can use fully charged cannon to combat us using plasma to ledgeguard, but it's quite slow and the timing is specific on stages and normal cannonball gets beaten by plasma.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Clown Kart Dash has around 9% worth of armor when moving, until Jr jumps. Our main moves that beat it are f-tilt (sour or tipper), tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair), bair, and of course Wing Blitz to kill with if he's at high %. Can dash shield against it as a mixup.
If you find yourself getting hit by the exploding kart of Jr up B a lot on stage, then you're dropping shield too soon to try punishing his landing. Need to hold shield until it explodes or move away before it does (even if under a platform), and then watch out for his powerful hammer after. Sometimes he uses the hammer to catch you sleeping at ledge as he recovers, so be ready to shield or avoid it. If you’re nearby off stage and he uses up B near the ledge, don’t try and catch his landing with a landing aerial and instead go back to ledge or back away enough from the explosion.
In neutral, you can stop mechakoopa in its tracks by hitting with a ranged attack (i.e. retreating nair) or shielding, the latter of which allows you to pick it up and throw at Jr. Don't be too obvious with shielding though or he'll grab you.
Aside from being able to angle it, Jr's f-smash is hard to punish OoS, so may be best to back up instead, unless spaced enough where you can do a d-tilt. Same goes for his dair, so if you shield, make sure you wait till the end of the move.
Jr has weak OoS options, nair being probably his best. Jr's throws have been buffed to kill around 150% at ledge, but his grab is exceptionally slow (tho good range), making it not a good OoS option. Do tech his drill d-throw though.
Jr multihits- d-tilt (3 hits), DA (6 hits), f-smash & u-smash (6 hits), dair (8 hits)
His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
If anyone doesn't know this by now, if you hit Jr's body he will take extra damage and if you hit the kart he will take reduced damage, so spacing and knowing your kills should get you far ahead. Up angle f-tilt will allow you to hit the body part of Jr more easily, along with positioning your aerials on him accordingly.
A simple attack off ledge can stop Jr up B recovery since it doesn't have a hitbox at first, and if you hit him after he abandons ship, he can use his up B again only for a few seconds, so he's vulnerable to getting gimped.
Jr's d-tilt is a good shield poker like ours and a good get-off-me, so respect it. Is punished by our nair OoS like his other normals though. Also, his jab 2/rapid jab finisher, u-tilt, u-smash (-26), d-smash (-32), and ledge GUA are punished by our own u-tilt when shielded should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Jr rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Besides maybe nair OoS on his fair and dair, his other landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset. Jr neutral B is OoS aerial/grab punishable when shielded up close, and kart dash spinout is very minus on shield which can be punished with f-smash, etc.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (89-94%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (95-104%)
p.s. Partial credit goes to the Ridcord JMU section for some of this info.
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Even
If Byleth misses with their down B, we pretty much get a free skewer. There's also grab and distanced plasma. Aymr has 30% worth of armor, but a sweetspoted skewer will still get them before it comes out. Also note Aymr hits us under platforms, so still avoid if under Byleth.
Other than that, respect Byleth's reach. Their f-smash can be angled up or down too and has a most deadly sweetspot. The range also applies to their side B (can be spot dodge punished, though also respect it in the air), fair, and bair. With their slow mobility, they play a defensive playstyle like us with trying to bait you in and punishing. Simply have to outplay them in that regard. That said, when you're up close when the sour spot of their attacks hit instead of the tipper, they do a lot less damage and knockback.
For short range moves, quickly count to five when shielding Byleth's nair to be sure you shielded the entire move, as the move itself is like five hits. Everyone talks about Byleth's noob killer down B which can turn around, but also respect their d-smash's shield damage and it being able to hit us under a platform if we have a hurtbox out. Their up tilt leads into combos as well as their uair juggling. Don't challenge their uair, try to airdodge it or go far around them as you fastfall, or go to ledge if necessary.
Byleth can also use their up B as you're up high. Try to airdodge or DI away after the initial hit to avoid a followup. Their neutral B arrow is good at sniping off stage but thankfully, it only shoots at two different points of the animation when it glows yellow or blue, but still something to watch out for, though think we can use plasma against them more easily than they can spam that.
Can also use plasma to gimp them off stage before they get their tether recovery out, try an off stage or CLS (crouch ledge slip) aerial before they pull up (though don't get up B grabbed), or if they're slightly above ledge when they begin to tether to it off stage, can do a quick SPR and drag them all the way down, followed by a jump release. They have a tough time landing against us too like we do against them. Other than that, focus more on corner pressure than trying to ledgetrap them. The risk/reward isn't there to engage with their side B and other ledge stalls like fair.
When being edgeguarded, their dair can dunk us, so delay a bit when recovering low. When recovering mid, watch out for their fair & bair tipper, nair potentially gimping, and of course their up B if you try to recover high. Mix it up. When on ledge, some moves like their f-smash can't hit us, but their d-smash can (just getup attack versus that), so keep in mind when planking. Is still risky to plank against non-shoto characters though, so just use the fact that Byleth's gotta space their moves more precisely to hit you, so that you can get off ledge.
If you do an SPR release for an aerial followup, beware of their side B as a get-off-me move, and up B grapple which will spike you. If you catch them with an SPR during a tech chase or something, may be better to just let it drag them off.
Another thing about their nair, if you get shield poked during the beginning of the move, would recommend tilting shield upward and if they try to poke shield with the landing hitbox, angling it down should work.
While shielding is generally good against Byleth up close, remember their d-smash and dair. Has 19/29 and 22 frame startups and are f43 and f35 in end lag, so jump OoS (followed by a landing aerial or special whiff punish) or roll away if expecting them.
If Byleth goes for an up throw to start juggling you, double jump the other way to shift your hurtbox and get out. You jump higher as Ridley if you double jump the opposing way.
Likewise, when grabbed by their up B while in the air, remember to tech right as it slams you to the ground so you don't get knocked back upward.
Other than that, is usually better to not approach because of their range. If they want to camp you, just use plasma. If they try to bow you, unless they do it way earlier than you, 2 fireballs beats it unless you get bad RNG. One trades and the other gets through.
And if they want approach you while you plasma, they will have to jump. They are very slow, so you put them in a pretty bad position as I’ve learned, making your anti-airs more dangerous.
You can deny Byleth so bad if you wall them well with plasma, tilts, and aerials, and then edgeguard their tether (can also plasma if you jump and shoot it so they have to deal with it outside of tether range). D-tilt is also just longer than all their aerials, so if they get in close and commit to jumping you can also just d-tilt if they try to space bair or fair, or just hit them in the air since they're stuck there. Dash and turnaround d-tilt also applies.
And again, plasma’s also really good to edgeguard Byleth because of their bad air speed. It just kind of creates a wall that they can't get through; if you hit them far enough of course.
To avoid getting grabbed by Byleth up B when edgeguarding off stage, remember they have to be outside the range of the ledge if they’re trying to do it. If they’re in range of the ledge, they can’t grab you with it, so if they have no jump left for instance, can bait out their up B by pretending you’ll drop, and then jump back. You can also still go for off stage deep edgeguards against them, but be horizontal to Byleth instead of above.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Their f-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and down B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
One other weakness of theirs is poor grab reach, and like us, no kill throws. Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent (shield drop > d-smash also works). Their normals are punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Their f-smash is also shield punished by our own if poorly spaced or SH SPR OoS, and their side B is most punishable on shield, including u-smash OoS if they're in the air. Besides their nair which can be nair OoS punished (unless spaced) and the laggy dair, their landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset.
Their gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable if shielded should they be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (86-89%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (90-101%)
Major credit to Zant on the advantage tips and some of the parts on neutral.
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In neutral, Falcon will either dash attack (-13 on shield) or dash grab (33 frames of end lag) to approach. He may jab after you shield an aerial, so wait for that and punish.
His side B has 10% worth of armor, but can either lift him off the ground with d-tilt before it comes out, or time a tipper nair (i.e. retreating nair) or f-tilt on it. It’ll armor through the sour versions though. Otherwise just shield the move. Far as what to do after shielding it, either an OoS option (including shield drop u-tilt to catch his landing if he does the aerial version, though be forward and quick with said option since the move bounces off of shield but has enough end lag), anti-air like up angle f-tilt if they do the aerial version, or step/fullhop back and see if they panic spot dodge or roll back, then see what you can do. If you're at somewhere high % when hit by it and launched higher, can also nair as a get-off-me before he manages to do an aerial followup.
Be careful not to swing too much against Falcons that know our character since his movement can be tricky. You need to find a sweetspot of waiting and putting out hitboxes to control space. He usually needs resets or certain platform positioning to get his busted combos out, so keep that in mind so you're not too linear in disadvantage.
With shielding Falcon Kick, just be aware of its ability to crossup your shield and do a turnaround attack as a punish during its end lag. Also keep the aerial version of the move in mind if they stall above you or do a ledge jump, but can counter with the intangibility of our u-tilt and u-smash if timed right.
For Falcon's risk/reward, don't forget that as soon as you get to around 30%, getting grabbed is better than getting hit by an aerial landing. Mid range at mid %, d-tilts are a bad idea because it lets him jump above you. If you're not sure of an interaction, shield except at very high %. Can fullhop nair to counteract his attempted landing aerials, especially when Ridley's cornered near ledge which can be more reliable than f-tilt or d-tilt when cornered.
When recovering off stage, even from a dash attack that sends you off at bit at low %, don't airdodge or swing with nair too early or he'll get you with something like dair.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Falcon’s u-tilt and u-smash have intangibility on the legs.
Air Falcon Kick can hit us under platforms, so still shield it there.
Falcon's nair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, both of which have 7 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
His f-smash, neutral B, and down B (grounded) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies to him, with shorthop skewer OoS usually being more consistent (shield drop > d-smash also works). His normals besides u-smash and maybe d-smash are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His landing aerials besides fair are too safe on shield though, so go for a neutral reset there. His grounded side B is punished by nair OoS and shield grab, while Falcon Kick (grounded) is shield punishable with f/d-smash even on crossup, and shorthop turnaround skewer OoS if properly spaced. Gotta be frame perfect though due to its 35 frames of end lag, and if Falcon Kick doesn't crossup, just f/d-smash. Also, his f-smash & aerial falcon kick are punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, f-smash, Falcon Kick (both aerial and grounded), and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (91-95%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (96-106%)
Credit to Mezcaul on dealing with neutral when at % mid range, and what to do when cornered and recovering. Also, external link on how to DI Falcon's combos: https://x.com/goatsposts/status/1467211350371880965
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Slightly Winning
Like Lucina, Chrom doesn't care as much about spacing as Roy or Marth. Chrom also has Ike's up B, but something Chrom has in common with Roy as an echo fighter is tending to rushdown his opponents more than Marth/Lucina, so we have to wall them out even more.
Roy/Chrom's 4 hit side B near ledge causes some of the earliest KO's, so watch out there the most. Avoid or shield, don't spot dodge. If they stop at a hit before 4, do a quick OoS attack or move away. Also watch how they use side B from ledge or landing.
Roy/Chrom have one of the best jabs, due to being a great combo starter in part. Jab > d-tilt and so on, so keep your distance. Another reason to do so is their up B being a good OoS option.
Watch how they charge their neutral B when edgeguarding and delay your recovery accordingly, or do a beefy up B. Watch for their counters too, and tech & hold down when hit by one.
Aside from walling them out with tilts and such, plasma can also be a good mixup for it.
When edgeguarding, Chrom's up B has no horizontal movement, so can easily hit him from above when he's at the highest point of his move, or 2-frame.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Dash attack will beat Chrom's shorthop if spaced.
When watching how he uses side B in neutral or disadvantage, stay spaced whether shielding or not. Unless confident you'll land a shorthop back skewer, going in too soon for a whiff punish before he does all 4 hits will get you punished instead, and if he whiffs the first two hits at mid range, shield the next hits since he slowly inches forward.
Roy/Chrom both have u-smash intangibility and super armor on their up B.
U-smash is 5/6 hits, nair is 2.
The 4th hit of Chrom's side B requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Their dair hits Ridley under plats, as does Chrom up B, so still shield or avoid.
Chrom up B (-29) has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be wary.
His smashes, dair, and side B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Their normals besides d-tilt and Chrom jab are punished by our OoS aerials and such; smashes are f-smash punished OoS, while Chrom f-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Landing aerials are too safe though, so reset. Charged neutral B is a shield breaker, but the side B hits are pretty unsafe on shield; even d-smash works also from skewer (after the last hit). If he misses a counter nearby, whiff punish.
Their u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, any side B hits, and ledge getup attack attack (-22) are u-tilt punished OoS should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt -> fullhop uair (87-90%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (91-100%)
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With Cloud's super safe aerials on shield, wait to try and punish what he does after rather than retaliate with an OoS attack, except for nair OoS against his fair if he mistimes it. His dash attack and crossup d-tilt we also punish OoS, and his unrewarding grab game balances out the cheesiness of his safe aerials on shield. Plasma works for counter-zoning his blade beam or to beat him stalling off stage with it as long as you keep your distance, but his blue blade beam goes through plasma. That said, if they have Limit off stage, stuff out their double jump and airdodge so they're forced to use Limit up B, or Limit neutral B to cover themselves if they're already up high.
Remember to not give up too much stage control when Cloud's charging Limit and instead approach with spaced moves (d-tilt being the main one that reliably outranges him) or plasma to force an option out of him. On that same token, d-tilt and plasma can keep Cloud jumping for whiff punishes on his fair/bair, though just be aware of his great air speed since he'll jump and hit you with those aerials if you plasma too close. Safe as his aerials otherwise are, they still have some startup; 11 frames for bair and 18 for fair respectively, followed by 30 frames of end lag for bair and 28 for fair.
- Our fair stuffs his bair
Whiff punishing his aerials as mentioned will condition him to use more empty jumps as a bait for you to whiff, by double jumping before he reaches the ground or drifting back so he can get some setup situations if you get hasty. This is when you can start to call out jumps with nair, fair, or even u-tilt if they are fullhopping. Cloud can beat it with rising aerials, but these are much riskier, like his nair which is smaller now.
Also keep in mind that full Limit lasts only 15 seconds, so you can mix it up between playing defensively (shield plenty & all the way through Limit specials, don't use laggy moves but air-to-airs) or aggressively to stall him out (use your running and jumps to keep him chasing you and waste Limit time), but remember the speed increase he gets from Limit, and watch out for favorites of theirs like bair > blue cross slash; can also break shield if not careful, but when you begin shielding blue cross slash, can spot-dodge to get out of it.
Cloud has an aerial blind spot in his diagonals, allowing us to counter with nair & fair when trying to land, but if still getting uair juggled, hold on to your jumps and don't airdodge directly onto him, especially with his u-smash or if he still has Limit.
When juggling him, his dair & up B mixup is the main thing to watch out for. Challenge with u-tilt, u-smash, or from the side. Even retreating pivot grab works, but watch out for dair when under plats and still shield/avoid.
- Cloud's up B can be DI'd out of; if you hold out, the downward hitbox will send you out instead of down.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Respect his ledge getup attack range.
His side B is generally 5 hits, with or without limit.
His f-smash and finishing touch are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His normals, regular three-hit cross slash, and regular blade beam up close are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 1/2/3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, regular neutral B up close, 3rd hit of regular side B, and ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His jab 3, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, and ledge getup attack are punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his f-smash (3 hits) is punished by our own when shielded. Safe as most of his landing aerials are, his dair is minus enough on shield to be punished by nair and maybe u-smash OoS.
If you shield his up B, just remember to do so all the way through till he's high in the air and the lands, or spot-dodge it in between.
Other than that, finishing touch is his most negative on shield move of all with how powerful it is, so can punish with whatever, even d-smash.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (89-92%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (93-104%)
Huge credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info. Also, external link on how to DI Cloud's dash attack- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNO4mPQLsBg
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Slightly Losing
First off, respect Corrin's juggling. Their aerials (especially uair and bair which they may telegraph) are fast, long, and disjointed, making it hard to move around them in the air. Either time an airdodge, or play it safe and fastfall off to the side toward the ledge. They may have a jump based neutral to take advantage of their juggling, which you can punish by staying grounded and anti-air or catch their landings. Also crouching + retreating turnaround d-tilt if needed.
Corrin's f-smash is one of the longest in the game, just behind Min-Min and the Belmonts. They can angle it up and down too, though they have to be precisely spaced to hit us on ledge with it. What makes their f-smash unique is they can damage you while charging it, so if you're not careful, can trap you into getting hard smashed off the stage. That said, you can SDI up out of it and airdodge behind them. Also, don't attack them when charging it unless with a long disjointed move or plasma.
With their neutral B, just remember it's a chargeable shot that stuns when it hits, and has those jaws waiting to chomp on you if you jump over the projectile. So if you jump over the shot, either stay away from Corrin or jump high. It doesn't do much shield damage though, and the shot can be clanked out by our moves even when fully charged.
The side B dragon lunge can be mixed up in plenty ways. Can 2 frame off the ledge with the initial spike (delay your jump/recovery accordingly), can spike into the ground and either kick forward, back, cancel pin and land on the ground, or jump from the pin (invulnerable on frames 2-7). Can shield punish the kicks easily, but if they see what you're doing, they may cancel the move and run up and grab you, so be ready to use an OoS option or move away. Jump is another option.
Also remember they have a counter because Fire Emblem. It sends vertically instead of horizontally, so DI left/right; can anticipate them to use it to stop you from juggling. Same with their dair. Pause your combo, wait for them to do either move, and punish. If you go off to edgeguard them, be ready to tech.
For weaknesses, low mobility. Also a poor disadvantage & exploitable recovery like us, weak grab game, and struggles against projectiles, so plasma can be good against them if used right.
If you’re in the air, you have to accept getting hit a couple of times if needed because losing your jumps and being stuck without them while they’re under you = gimped.
Try to make your ledge grabs as ambiguous as possible (aka mixup recovering low and horizontal to ledge, mixup which move you use) to try and avoid getting hit with pin. Respect pin on stage as well.
Gameplan is to try and bait them into whiffing and then getting stray punishes. If they aren’t approaching you, you can incentivize them with a couple of plasma but don’t get reckless and charge it while they’re too close.
You can outspace their nair/fair with f-tilt, so definitely stay grounded, but you have to be ready for pin.
Also while at ledge, Corrin's f-smash does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance; allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge. On the flipside, is easier to ledgetrap Corrin than edgeguard them.
Disadvantage
- Ridley can use a beefy up special to clank with Dragon Lunge's pinned attack two frames and grab ledge unharmed.
- While at ledge, Corrin's forward smash does not hit Ridley's ledge hang from ledge roll distance, allow the positioning of the Corrin to dictate your action off ledge.
Corrin pin
To sum it up, the Corrin pin tech chase setup is fake. The pin does put you into tumble, but you're actionable before landing, so you get two strong options with little risk that punishes them for being greedy for not taking the kick followup.
You can hold buffer an aerial that autocancels or has low end lag (our nair) that gives frame advantage and punishes on the pin drop release as well as their pin jump cancel.
With holding buffered aerials, during any action, you can hold buffer an input basically indefinitely. Pressing and holding A during Corrin's pin will automatically aerial as soon as you are actionable. Thus, you can press and hold A with the stick in neutral to buffer a nair, then have free control of the stick later while still guaranteeing a buffered nair.
This option select covers pin release while giving you the ability to use the left stick to survival DI the kick. This hold buffer trick also works with buffering specials, but that'll be a rare mixup in our case.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Their up B is invulnerable on frames 7-17, stopping just before the move becomes active on frame 18. Once they start moving, you can hit them with anything including dair.
Their dash attack can crossup our shield, though not by much, but be ready to do a turnaround punish just in case.
Their dair hits us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there. Same goes for their side B pin when under a plat.
Corrin side B is mashable; cancels the pin and causes you to be knocked down instead.
Corrin f-smash (charged) requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Their smashes are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Their rapid jab finisher is shield punished with f-smash. Their normals are punished by our OoS aerials & shield grab, while their gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, landing dair, neutral B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by our own u-tilt should they be at u-tilt > uair kill %. If they whiff a counter surge nearby, skewer punish. Also, their u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-27) are shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
Their landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. The 2nd part of their neutral B is fairly shield punishable (-31 to -19), and the dragon lunch pin kick is -35 on shield, while the back kick is -48, making it plenty punishable with whatever. Remember though they may cancel the pin and go for a grab if they see you shielding early, so use an OoS attack early if they cancel and approach, or move away.
- Corrin's neutral air hits from the side then going into an arc counterclockwise, covering all directions. Do not challenge this move directly, instead use disjointed tail attacks.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (88-91%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (92-100%)
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Occasionally Z-catch the banana peel when you can (or sometimes when you tilt/aerial or airdodge), though if you're not confident in using it against him, can always throw it off stage or perhaps better yet, throw it to the far side of the stage, keeping it out of play which makes it longer before he can spawn a new one. We have some Skewer setups with it too, that said.
Jumping over is otherwise the best option like when waiting for him to throw it, which you can mix up your jump patterns with your multi jumps to make him guess far as your landing; jumping at the last moment, attacking (landing aerial may also counter a side B attempt), or airdodging on reaction. Usually Diddy's will try to throw the banana as you land, OoS, or to punish a whiff or bad roll.
- Ledgehop (or ledge drop double jump) f-air can be good for grabbing a banana at ledge in the process, but is a mixup only since Diddy can punish on reaction
Likewise jump over his peanut projectile most often, including ledge jump if he tries using it to ledgetrap. When he's landing, watch out for him using peanut as a B-reverse to try and make you whiff. Peanut's also catchable like banana, but there's little point with how weak it is. If you get in the habit of shielding it and likewise with banana, he'll punish with Monkey Flip, so don't let him condition you (dash shielding helps though). Respect and anticipate side B, including when he’s off stage near or at ledge & you’re on stage, as you don’t want to get reversaled. Also anticipate it if he recovers high with a fullhop aerial.
Like us, Diddy can also use his side B to help with his off-stage recovery, and with how much speed and distance it covers, you likely won't get a chance to gimp him with an aerial if he uses that to recover instead of up B. It can catch you quick too when you're on the receiving end trying to recover, and peanut can potentially gimp when used to edgeguard, so recover low when possible in most cases to avoid both of those.
Speaking of up B, you do want to shield Rocket Barrel (which he'll most often use horizontally) even under platforms, if you're not ready to counterattack him. Diddy up B explosions are also punishable with Rid d-smash if he lands close or dash attack if he lands far. Be ready for that if he uses it as a wildcard on stage or from somewhere off stage to land. If you hit him out of his rocket barrels (on or off stage), he can still control it and circle it back to blast into you. Is unlikely but possible, so respect it.
Monkey Flip is mashable, but you’re very rarely gonna outrun it, so most of its punishing happens during the move with some kind of anti-air like retreating nair, u-tilt, up angle f-tilt, or even u-smash at kill %. It may be a good idea to spend less time shielding against Diddy and more time moving around him, with how quick his side B is which’ll punish you if you’re as comfy in your shield as some matchups. When caught by side B, jump release results in a footstool; also be ready to tech it at ~10%.
Another thing about monkey flip, despite how fast it may feel or seem, it still has plenty startup; 18 frames which is only 4 frames less than that of our command grab, so if you can mess up their close range you can just straight up beat the move. Monkey flip is preferred at mid range which is where Ridley typically wants to be at which it makes it hard to play his usual game, so you may have to bait him close range or play lame at far range.
Also focus on gaining space and stage control when he brings out the banana. When Diddy pulls the banana out (and only when he’s actively pulling it out), focus on where the banana is going instead of Diddy, as he’s going to jump to catch it. If you are close enough you can punish it, such as with nair, or try to estimate where he’ll go right after he picks it up.
Watch out for his d-tilt hand clap which is one of his main combo starters like with us, except he can followup with smashes (unless you're at too high % for his u-smash to connect) and has a 20% chance of causing tripping. Otherwise with his aerials that lead into combos, remember to DI away. His f-throw and b-throw can kill around 150% range at the ledge, and his u-throw can combo too. DI for Ridley is not as effective against his Hoo Ha kill confirm (d-throw > bair) though.
Is a niche option, but when Diddy's either holding the banana or has already thrown it, can sometimes use Plasma to trade with him as a situational check. Plasma like other projectiles can stop the thrown banana in its place if timed right, and forces an option out of him even if it doesn't hit him like when the banana's already on the ground, and simply hopping over the peel to reach him will often greet you with his f-air or something.
Platform stages are recommended against Diddy since landing against him can be difficult for the reasons established.
For more specific things on the matchup...
General gameplan
- Stop the Diddy from getting the banana in neutral. Diddy will catch approaches with fair, d-tilt, and side B to limit our approaches and pull the banana easily. Is important to spot the pattern of Diddy pulling the banana to punish him.
- Shield plenty at high %, angle your shield upwards, and then cancel with fullhops to bait a monkey flip.
- Diddy fair is laggy enough to punish with nair or shield grab.
Lose conditions
- Nair > devastating dair at mid %. At the corner, avoid f-tilt or d-tilt to concentrate on the aerial. If touched, DI in the dair.
- If they never do a rising aerial against our shield at high % for an easy up smash punish.
- Try to spotdodge or roll out our side B. Jumping or rolling in is the solution.
- Try to punish his dash attack or side B kick on shield. Take into account the RPS situations.
Facing the banana
- If Diddy banana is in front of us, it's a huge commitment; running in and d-tilt/f-tilt or dash attack to pick it up. Intercepting the banana in the air is not recommended because of our weak air game. Pick up the banana with f-tilt or dash attack, as both have good reach.
- Learn to ledge jump z-catch the banana placed in the corner. If Diddy has banana and shields at the corner while we are off stage, do not ledge jump. If we have no choice, move away from the wall to limit our chances of getting hit by the banana.
- Once the banana is in your hands, either ledgetrap with it, send it to Diddy, or place it on a platform if you can. Unfortunately, keeping it is not good, as we can no longer f-tilt or d-tilt.
- If Diddy has the banana, absolutely space the f-tilt or d-tilt. After these, shield as the first intention. Jumping a lot after is helpful.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His f-smash is 2 hits and u-smash is 3 hits.
Diddy up tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS options and shield grab; d-tilt being the main exception, but d-smash is punished by shorthop SPR OoS and his u-smash is shield punished by our f-smash. While his dash attack does technically crossup shield, doesn't do so by much with it being 3 hits, so watch him closely if you shield it and punish (is -14). His landing aerials besides fair and dair are pretty safe on shield, so go for a reset there.
Jab 3, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt too should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
If he charges his neutral B up close, it’s shield punishable with OoS aerials/grab, while the overcharge is very minus on shield. Horizontal rocket barrel's plenty punishable on shield too, even with d-smash.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-86%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (87-95%)
Major credit to Mezcaul on the general gameplan, lose conditions, and specifics in facing the banana.
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Neutral: DK's approaches are a 50/50 between dash attack (-13 on shield and only 10 frames of end lag) & dash grab (33 frames of end lag), along with his bair walling which you want to anti-air.
Disadvantage: Watch out for aerial hand slap hitting ledge hang. Also use ground tech from 2nd hit of that move to avoid a u-smash kill.
Advantage: Watch out for him using fully charged neutral B from ledge. Also, even if they’re facing toward you, good DK players will B-reverse their neutral B charge to let themselves double jump bair through your fireballs. Semi charging at most is good in this instance so you can try and aerial them after, while saving full charge plasma for when they’re recovering from further away.
With DK’s spike options, pay attention to how he moves off stage to determine how you recover, sometimes attacking him in the process. Try to mash out of his cargo throw, but especially watch out for his up throw setups. If you do get carried by his cargo throw off stage, watch out for f-throw where he dunks you with f-air after. To avoid that, delay your jump and recover low. Also watch out for off stage b-throw where he tries to stage spike you, but try to tech that (shield + up). Same if he does bair or nair in this instance.
Other than that, respect the super armor of his neutral B, up B (7 hits on the ground but in the air is inconsistent), and side B, as well as the intangibility of his three tilts, smashes, and uair. Avoid the side B rather than shield it with how much shield damage it does, and watch out for it when juggling him. Wall him out with our neutral tools and combo him when possible. DK knows his recovery is bad, so he’ll often use it early to avoid being spiked. Back up and punish when you anticipate it. A mixup DK may do is ledge drop double jump dair.
Miscellaneous and frame data
While his side B has super armor, it's not there while he's headbutting; only the startup frames before it, which makes either challenging or punishing it that much more possible (same with his up B during startup). Won't be buried if hit by the air version, but still tech it if on stage.
For his down B, aside from it spiking off stage, it can hit is under platforms, so still shield it there. Same with his d-tilt and dair.
His u-smash, d-smash, dair, side B, and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Respect his grab range and ledge getup attack range.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
DK's normals are pretty punishable OoS for us with our aerials, grab, u-smash, and such. His d-smash can also be shield punished by f-smash, and his jab 2, f-tilt, u-tilt, u-smash, d-smash, up B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by our u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though besides fair, so go for a reset there.
His side B does a lot of shield damage as mentioned, but if you shield it at full health, can punish with most options since it's -32. His grounded down B and especially up B (-37) are punishable OoS too; skewer, d-smash, etc for the latter.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (104-108%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (109-117%)
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- Doc Tornado is 7 hits and -30 on shield, so can be punished by Ridley f-smash OoS. Be aware though it has 10% damage worth of armor. When it by it, have to do about 2 SDI inputs, each hit of which has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Up smash has head intangibility on frames 9 to 13.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (88-91%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (92-98%)
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To get in, first and foremost:
Figure out what moves will safely hit the can and then hit the can; our spaced tilts & aerials generally, and maybe plasma depending on distance. The can bounces 9 times before it starts smoking. This forces DH to hit the can again themselves to regain control of it. Be fairly sure that they WILL try to hit the can in this case, as most of their neutral revolves around it being available. Once can is inactive, they only have the linear pressure of clay pigeon and gunman, so you can approach more safely with aerials or chance a grounded approach, being ready to shield, preferably dash shield.
If you go in from the air (after can has been neutralized), be wary of
- uair, as it hits three times with a hitbox as wide as DH's body
- u-smash's first and third hitbox, which hit up-and-in-front and then directly above
- fade back into up angled f-tilt (not disjointed) or up angled f-smash (very disjointed)
Going in from the ground is usually just them spamming the same options they would normally have in neutral. Nothing special since they won't want to do anything too bold like jump into you with an aerial.
Additional stuff:
Keep in mind that clay pigeon has both the object's hitbox plus the shots after; said shots happen in an overlapping pattern that is larger than DH themselves. It's better to shield tilt it than try to play tightly around it as the hitstun is generous and they can somewhat spam it at close ranges. DH grabs don't lead into much besides can setups & no kill throws, so this isn't the worst thing to do dependent on the situation.
One other big piece of advice is don't push your advantage when you're both grounded because they can hit you with a clay pigeon out of hitstun and suddenly your combo is theirs. Same thing with covering landings; don't try to time a tilt because you might get hit by a clay pigeon. Charge plasma from away or let them land. Either way it's not worth the risk of getting hit by clay pigeon.
Gunman has a longer cooldown (I think maybe two extra seconds) if you hit them, so take the odd safe chance to do that if the opponent uses them a lot. They take hitlag the same as any other character or object so be aware that DH can do funky stuff like a retreating jump to drop a gunman which eats the attack while they use the extra frames to act. The fastest gunman is the one in red.
When being ledgetrapped by Duck Hunt, don’t hit the can with ledge getup attack, as he can f-smash it back.
Miscellaneous and frame data
You can’t SDI clay pigeon. Hold shield, DI, and try jumping.
Watch out for dair under plats and shield or avoid.
Use retreating nair to hit clay shooter & gunman while remaining mobile.
His f-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Rapid jab skewer punish applies, shorthop skewer OoS in this case (shield drop > d-smash also works). His normals are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab.
His gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack (-28) are u-tilt punishable should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, and his f-smash you can punish with our own if shielded. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so go for a neutral reset.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-85%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (86-95%)
Major credit to Rex's pinned post on the Ridcord metagame channel.
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Falco can be the most challenging out of the spacie trio since he's mainly in the air while Fox and Wolf are more grounded. Thus, you'll be using less grounded moves like d-tilt and more often air to air'ing. Having one of the highest jumps in the game too, Falco can sometimes reach you faster than you have time to react and continue the combos. Mixing up your DI/SDI away helps though.
For the infamous u-tilt, if you shield it, try to roll away before approaching him again. That said, watch out for his throws if you shield the u-tilt too often, with back throw killing at high % at ledge and the other three leading into combos. You can DI away from the laser from his up, down, and back throws at least. Once you get to mid percent, his throws do nothing as long as you DI up throw.
U-tilt is -12 on shield, so you should be able to just nair, grab, or u-smash (from behind) Falco. U-tilt is a main combo starter, but so is d-tilt. He will use pivot tilts or aerials for approaches, the latter being mostly unpunishable OoS.
Just look out on how he wants to start the combo. If you know he's going to do a tilt, just shield. He does have a frame 6 grab though, so be wary on waiting on shield too long.
Falco’s lasers in neutral don’t do much on their own. They don’t combo into anything; it’s mainly to get you to jump unsafely over them so he can get you in position for u-tilt combos, so be mindful of how you jump over or otherwise avoid the lasers.
For his reflector that's also kind of a projectile, you either need to attack from above or shield quickly as you approach. It's pretty punishable on shield up close to where you can f-smash him after, or shorthop skewer OoS if lucky.
Falco isn't that fast overall which makes neutral doable, apart from what's been said about his jump height which makes our approach game being either grounded or at fullhop height. Due to u-tilt being Falco's bnb as mentioned, being grounded at mid range is most favorable.
In between his u-tilt 1 and 2, you can u-smash OoS as a punish. Like u-tilt, his side B is a potential combo starter and kill confirm, so respect it too; like Fox's, it loses to shield.
U-throw is his main combo throw, but d-throw also combos. U-throw's also a kill confirm if you don't DI left/right (b-throw you DI away or down). D-throw combos can be avoided with DI away.
His fair is great at shield pressure due to a couple mixups; the mixups are to change the timing of the landing hitbox (after the 6 hits) or to fade away to avoid shield grabs.
When at kill %, also look out for his d-tilt and bair. What else makes him different from the other spacies is how easy he edgeguards.
Otherwise edgeguard him the way you would Fox between the up B and side B. Due to Falco's weight and fall speed, kill confirms like d-throw > bair become even better.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His d-smash is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
His u-smash and d-smash have some intangibility on the legs, and his d-tilt.
You can still fight him patiently while grounded, but have to time it between him having the longest jump height in the game (won't keep you waiting as long as a floaty though) & all his landing aerials being too safe on shield, so you contest them instead with your anti-airs or d-tilt.
Falco multihits- u-tilt (2 hits), u-smash (2 hits), nair (4 hits), fair (6 hits)
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Falco rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable. Besides d-tilt, his other normals as well as side B, down B, and point-blank laser can at least be punished by nair OoS. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset. His u-smash, d-smash, and ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by SH SPR OoS.
His jab 2/rapid jab finisher, DA, smashes, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt punishable should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Rid kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (79-82%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (83-91%)
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You need to keep up with his pace or he'll run right over you. To match his playstyle, keep moving, don't sit in shield too often, and save your slower attacks; hitting him with tilts, quick jabs, and aerials most of the time. Fox's dash attack is a great whiff punish that leads into more combos. Generally want to DI away from his combos though. Sometimes may need to airdodge to escape, but don't use it carelessly because Fox often anticipates it. Against a good Fox, need to mix up your DI so he doesn't catch on to your habits.
Almost all his combos lead to his most reliable KO move, his up smash. Since he'll mostly use it as a combo ender or a hard read, need to make sure you're not playing too predictably which'll keep him from making said reads.
Respect his aerials. Nair is a fast kick that protects his landing, poke around your shield, ledgetrap, and lead into combos. Your best bet is to shield and move, preferably with a shorthop away when he does it. Also keep an eye on his 5-hit fair which also has a landing hitbox. His bair is fast and deadly, so watch out. His dair doesn't spike but is 7 hit, so need to hold all the way through when shielding. His uair juggles really well and can KO, so if you're above Fox, try to get around him when getting back to the stage, time a nair, or get to ledge if nothing else.
Also remember his jab, which he'll commonly do out of nair. If you shield rapid jab to the end, can do a dash grab, dash attack, or long reach move.
His blaster he'll mainly use to bait you in. While it has no knockback, it does more damage each hit, so be methodical with your approach.
Aside from its main purpose, his reflector he can also use to break combos or mix up his fall speed. Aside from recovering horizontally, he'll sometimes use his side B on stage as a mixup, leading into u-smash or combos, as it hits you upward which allows for a juggle. If you shield it, he will not go through you.
For all his strengths, remember he's still one of the lightest characters in the game, and taller than most characters that light. Because Fox relies on his usual combo setups and hard reads, he can be predictable, often going for the same ones. Catch on to his habits as much as he does yours.
While his grab is fast, his throws are a bit weak. None of them KO early, and if you DI right, none of them lead into true combos.
His recovery is arguably is even more linear than ours between the side B and up B. While we don't have as many up B angles, Fox normally uses his up B the same way. Both recoveries can be punished hard with a read, whether you shield side B on stage or hit it off stage, and up B we often beat with down angle Wing Blitz if timed right.
Fox knows his recovery's predictable, so he'll do his best to mix it up, using side B and up B at different times to throw you off. You can beat that by playing the same game; go off the ledge and come back which will bait him to side B, and then you attack.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His d-smash has leg intangibility during frames 6-7.
Fox fair hits require about 2 SDI inputs, which have 3 to 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
His u-smash, d-smash, and bair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Fox can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method.
Skewer > jab 2 > whatever, for delayed getup.
Rapid jab finisher you can also shield punish with f-smash. His normals besides f-tilt we can at least punish with nair OoS (some with our other OoS aerials and shield grab). His rapid jab finisher, smashes, & ledge getup attack (-27) are u-tilt punishable should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %, while his u-smash & d-smash we can also shield punish with f/d-smash/SH skewer. His fair & dair we punish with our OoS aerials and maybe u-smash, but his other landing aerials are too safe, so reset.
His point-blank laser and side B we can punish with our OoS aerials and such, and maybe f-smash if side B is spaced and you react quick enough with it. His down B and up B on shield are also pretty unsafe which can be punished with f-smash, etc.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop u-air (76-79%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (80-87%)
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Neutral
This is one of the few matchups where you can play primarily as a zoner. Wall Ganon out with a mix of tail disjoints and plasma to keep him from getting in his mid-range where he excels. He's much slower on the ground and in the air than Ridley, so you can really run away from him if needed. Plasma tends to be hard for Ganon to get around if used properly. Wizard’s Foot or Wizkick can randomly beat plasma but isn't consistent enough to be a true counter, especially when staled.
Ganon will have to use clever movement and jump mixups to bait you into either a whiff or catch you shielding/dashing. Any move Ganon has will give him advantage if it lands, so you have to play outside his bubble at all times. For such a heavy hitter, Ganon’s moves are safer on shield than you’d expect; landing nair, fair, and bair are basically completely safe and you shouldn’t be attempting to directly punish them. Watch what they do after. Late hit dash attack and spaced d-tilt are also safe.
It’s important to keep in mind where you are on stage. The last thing you want is for Ganon to corner you. When shielding, watch out for Wizkick crossups, and of course flame choke or dark dive setups, the latter of which is a go-to if you're cornered.
Disadvantage
You can tech grounded flame choke, but air choke is untechable, so it’s important that you slightly delay your getup option around 8 frames, as it'll make Ganon’s followup the hardest to perform. When flame choked on the ground, have to be aware of what options you’re choosing and mix them up. Below are the possible followups.
Grounded-
- Missed tech: Jab, f-tilt, instant dash attack, d-tilt
- Getup attack: Pivot f-smash
- Roll away: F-smash (slight charge)
- Tech in place: Jab, f-tilt, d-tilt, instant dash attack
- Tech inward: Dash attack, f-tilt, d-smash
- Tech away: Instant dash attack, Wizkick
Air choke:
- Getup attack: Shorthop dair
- Roll away: Dash attack, Wizkick, u-smash, d-smash
- Roll in: U-smash, d-smash
- Standard getup: U-smash, d-smash
His dash attack and d-throw are both combo starters, leading into nair and uair at low percents. D-throw > bair can kill very early on DI in only.
Ganon can’t hit you on the ledge without taking risks which you can abuse. His nair is big and fast enough to allow great option coverage and reacting to ledge options you do in reaction to his nair. Play patient, watch his spacing and, stay safe. Drop down aerials are not super effective due to Ganon’s large hitboxes and doriyah f-smash (Ganon can only hit Ridley on the ledge with tipper f-smash on the right side of the stage). Getup attack can be a valued asset to your getups though; if they get too predictable with aerials or charge a smash too close, don’t hold back.
For off stage, Ganon covers large space with his aerials but he has to commit which gives us options to mix up. Our mixup options in general are pretty good but getting back on stage horizontally and/or from above will prove to be a challenge at times.
The biggest threats are drop zone aerials to hit you trying to SPR or jump to ledge, his dair can sometimes trade with up B if they time and space it really well, so keep that in mind. Always do a beefy up B when recovering to swat away Ganon and possibly allow you to get up from ledge. He can also edgeguard with dark dive but it's risky since they can sometimes still get tech checked.
Ganon doesn't juggle so much as he catches landings if you find yourself above him. He's not fast on the ground, but he doesn’t need to be for this. Dash attack, flame choke, and Wizkick can catch landings, and his aerials are big, powerful, and fast for keeping you in the air. Don't try to challenge him with dair, just go to ledge or land away from Ganon. You also have your jumps you can time to try and make him whiff or mix up your landings along with fastfalls to get around him.
Advantage
Ganon’s ledge hang is somewhere as good as ours, so you’ll have to space plasma further back to hit him, but other than that, down angle f-tilt and d-smash can hit him with only mild spacing. Watch out for ledge drop side B. Air flame choke is stupid fast and you want to avoid getting hit by it. Besides that, Ganon doesn’t really have ledge drop options. He gets ledgetrapped like most big bodies, so just stay right outside of getup attack range and read or react accordingly.
When he's off stage, just plasma mainly. You can also run off aerial on occasion when Ganon is maneuvering plasma or beating it out with a well timed nair, or you can use aerials when he’s recovering high. Combining plasma and aerials is very deadly. If you get him to use up his jump to avoid plasma or it gets clipped but not enough to kill him, a falling nair or fair is very tough to get around. Don't forget to try and tech check him if he catches you with dark dive.
Ganon's landing in disadvantage is pretty rough, with how slow he is in the air along with being big. Safe landing aerials help, but he has to space and time them correctly to be safe. It’s more rewarding and less risky to focus on catching his landings like he does with us trying to land. You don’t want to get hit by a dair or air Wizkick for trying to nair or uair him. D-tilt will catch Ganon if you go under his landing aerials and hit him; abuse this if they’re landing with fairs or nairs. Plasma if he’s trying to stay away from you, and pressure him to go to ledge.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Respect his ledge getup attack range.
His dair if timed right along with air Wizkick can hit us under a platform, so still shield or avoid there.
While his dash attack does not crossup on our shield like it would for others, his grounded Wizkick still does, but it's riskier for him to do on account of Wizkick having more end lag and being less safe on shield (still -29, so can do a turnaround f-smash in which case).
His u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, and neutral B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab comes out well before his, so always use in up close scramble situations. His jab on shield is normally too safe for us to punish though, so reset. All his other normals you can at least nair OoS and such though.
His up smash is shield punished by shorthop SPR OoS. Wizkick is shield punished by Ridley f-smash as pointed out, and air Wizkick (-34) is even more unsafe, but does much shield damage, so don't shield if it's not at full health. His f-smash, u-smash, d-smash 1, and Wizkick are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (97-101%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (102-112%)
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info.
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Respect the dash attack, being its main combo starter which comes out fast and ends quickly. Watch their patterns to anticipate when they'll use it and shield etc if expecting it (is -13 on shield, so punish OoS). Try to DI away if hit. Can airdodge a followup in time after when hit by DA at high %.
Also respect its tilts. D-tilt and u-tilt leads into combos. While shielding is a good option here too, often your best option is to throw out a quick attack (jab, nair) before it hits you.
Greninja's air speed and jump height make it hard to follow, so patiently play mostly grounded, anti-airing and catching landings when possible. That said, nair protects its landing, fair & 3-hit bair are good combo finishers, and uair juggles and can drag down into jablock combos, so don't miss tech. Watch their dair patterns in order to punish it if they get spammy.
If you're diagonally above Greninja when it tries to uair, can nair its blindspot.
Much as shielding helps, also respect Greninja's grab, being one of the longest non-tether grabs; a few places above ours. Its d-throw and u-throw lead into combos, and f-throw leads into a tech chase, so watch out for grab if you get too shield happy.
With water shuriken, aside from charging, be aware of how they use it to mix up their landing (be it a small one or landing with a fully charged one), and how they use it to condition you; if you shield it, they may run up and grab, and if you jump, they may expect it and do an aerial on you. Is a 50/50, so mix it up to keep em guessing what you're gonna do. Also be aware of how they use it to try and catch your landing (if you jump, don't land near em), and if they use it to try and gimp, can nair or fair it.
With shadow sneak, you can see the shadow beforehand even if they use it in the air, but can be harder to see on dark stages, so try not to choose those. They may use the move to protect its landing or punish yours, but in neutral or advantage, anticipate and be ready to shield it.
Remember Greninja has the double team counter. Occasionally bait them to use it and punish.
For weaknesses, it lacks an effective OoS option. Will often run away after shielding as a result, which you can catch on to, but remember its mixup with counter. They also lack combo breakers, with its nair & fair having slow startup and the other three aerials not having very big hitboxes; so like after shielding, its best option in the air is to jump away which you can also anticipate.
Like us, it has no kill throws, so at higher % you're safer from grabs, but DI away from d-throw.
While it doesn't often work, watch out for them using hydro pump (up B) as an edgeguarding mixup, and don't let it gimp you. That said, Greninja's recovery is exploitable when edgeguarding or ledgetrapping them; using shadow sneak from the ledge which you can whiff or shield punish, or their up B having no hitbox which you can take advantage of.
When edgeguarding Greninja, there are times when f-tilt is the safest thing to do. Committing to plasma breath at the wrong time gets you reversaled hard by full charged shuriken and shadow sneak. Also doesn’t help against them recovering high.
One option is to do a ledge grab setup and use the I-frames to just ignore shadow sneak altogether, and when they try to hydro pump you just ledgehop nair back to stage. They’re easier to land than f-tilt, but very rarely get a similar reward.
Once you’ve forced them to up B from far enough away, you can set up with a double jump bair to close out the stock. The fact that they have so many angle mixups makes it less straightforward, but if you’re aware of how to limit the number of mixups he can pull out, it makes damage buildup easier.
One other thing, Greninja has d-tilt > up smash as a kill confirm on us starting around 90%. Our u-tilt > uair confirm kills him a little earlier though.
Miscellaneous and frame data
SPR Greninja on plats if worried about him substitute countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt).
Greninja d-tilt requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %.
His f-smash, d-smash, fair, and Shadow Sneak are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. Greninja can also jump over ledge trump nair without getting hit, so another reason to do the falling bair onto stage method. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Rapid jab skewer punish also applies, with shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent (Greninja leans forward a bit with the finisher, so may need to shorthop back a bit with the skewer. Shield drop > d-smash also works). Its normals are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, but its landing aerials besides uair and dair are too safe on shield, so reset there. Water shuriken up close is similarly shield punished, and especially shadow sneak which is -29. Jab 3 & f-smash are punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
Its d-smash is also -29 and thus can be shield punished by our f-smash, while gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, all three smashes, side B, and ledge getup attack (-24) are shield punished by u-tilt should they be at u-tilt > uair kill %. If they whiff a substitute counter nearby, skewer punish.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-86%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (87-96%)
Credit to smub on some of the edgeguarding/ledgetrapping tips.
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Go here for a detailed list of his command selection spells- https://www.ssbwiki.com/Command_Selection
Here for seeing Zoom landing points- https://x.com/rightasreine/status/1346613582147035136
And here for seeing how he mixes up his up B off stage- https://x.com/aperfectcreatio/status/1336886748132073474
Respect Hero's side B. It has 15% damage worth of armor, but in most cases avoid it at all costs, or shielding it all the way through, even under a plat. His f-tilt 1 has invincibility on the left arm and leg during frames 9-11, and his f-air is a good way of approach which you can shield and punish too. His neutral B is a chargeable fireball similar to other big projectile moves and can clank similarly. With how slow his attacks are in general, shield or bait & punish. He recovers from low which you can go off stage to edgeguard, but if caught in the tornado, be ready to tech.
Disadvantage
For being juggled, Hero doesn't make it easy to land like with fair, bair, nair, and his big up tilt which makes positioning iffy. So keep your airdoge in mind, when to use it and if you should use directional airdodge, but keep some jumps handy for later, for who knows when you'll need them. A popular Ridley tool is also fastfall nair since out of hitstun you can't immediately fastfall. It's the fastest aerial of ours and has some okay disjoint but can be contested and be shielded. Our fastfall speed is decent, giving us a good window of time to come back down.
Other tools that can be used are bair, fair, and maybe dair when close to ledge to get down quicker. If done right dair can auto-cancel if high enough and be mixed up with other options and moves but it's a straight line and no disjoint, so Hero's up tilt and aerials should cover it.
Off stage, SPR is a nice tool to get to ledge quickly but easy to outrange with Hero nair, fair and, bair. The Wing Blitz directions, I would say recovering either straight or low is pretty nice, but straight is contested with Hero neutral B and side B. Airdodge can help save some jumps but laggy when used directionally, and can be able to snap to ledge without up B. Low recovery is probably best due to up B's ability to poke through stage when holding down on WB up. Uair can protect us too but Hero has them aerials, and generally off-stage gets worse versus accel Hero.
From ledge Ridley has some tools, like ledge drop side B, fair, and nair, but be wary, for Hero side B outranges them easily. Ledge jump nair is also nice, but Hero u-tilt gets that outranged and punished. Hero shielding us at ledge is fairly safe because his OoS good, but usually they are out of range for Rid side B or fair because of their amazing spells. LSK (ledgeslip kaswoosh) is to be dealt with in low recovery & teching or high recovery but that is usually more punished by Hero's aerials and u-tilt. His dair you also want to try teching.
Now the biggest offender of the topic, accel Hero. He goes zooming constantly. Off-stage is a scary situation because SPR and WB are too slow to get away safely without getting punished. Would suggest try recovering low and keeping airdoge ready & your jumps saved, but be wary of just buffering airdoge and such or he will catch us.
Neutral
Plasma is usually a nice combo starter & kill confirm but is pretty difficult to use on Hero due to his shield, Bounce spell, and quick projectiles.
As Ridley we need to be wary of Hero up B, as that is a pretty fast combo breaker that can more often than not put Ridley in a bad spot. It's very important to note that trying to keep Accelerate Hero in disadvantage is next to impossible due to his ridiculous jump height, speed, and aerial drift, so Ridley should be content with whatever stray hits he gets. When in accel, Heroes will be looking for neutral B, landing nair, grabs, and shorthop up B. Normal Hero uses a lot of neutral B to condition shields for grabs and side B.
Ridley likes a closer approach to this matchup considering Hero's neutral B and side B play the longer game better than plasma can. We have the tilt advantage in terms of range, which is to mean dealing with Hero in either d-tilt or f-tilt range is great. Catch jump-in's with u-tilt or nair as always, preferably u-tilt here since it's not so committal and Hero's a bit floaty.
Hero has the range advantage in the aerial department. We generally have the movement advantage, even in the air without Hero having accel. Also to consider the usage and handling of plasma. Again, plasma 2-3 it optimal and not too committal but with Hero having Bounce, you just want plasma 2, so that the reflected fireballs cancel each other out. A Hero with Bounce should just run it because there's nothing to fear. If you want to contest Hero's aerial range wisely, go for fair, but it's laggy, so not great; just catch his landing with d-tilt or maybe up angle f-tilt.
Now in the consideration of defensive options, Hero can just whack our shield with no issue, seeing as how our nair OoS is frame 11, while Hero's OoS is a quick frame 7, meaning no shield poking for us outside of f-tilt or d-tilt, but if you play the longer game with Hero neutral B and side B, you shouldn't find yourself in that situation.
The most confusing part is the surprise factor Hero can pull up with the down B menu and a lot of it plays the long game well or just buffs Hero, making him quicker and stronger with the right menu pulls. There's no true counter if Ridley is not in the optimal range since Hero can cancel menu with shield or jump, though disturbing him with plasma can work, but you should be generally taking advantage that if you get in that, Hero would have to panic pick a menu option.
Advantage
Off-stage is where it gets pretty fun, as Ridley has fantastic edgeguarding. Ridley must know what options Hero has off-stage, as they can either die pretty easily or have an uncontestable recovery. If Hero has Zoom primed or under the effects of Accelerate, don't bother trying as these will give Hero stage control for free.
Without those, Hero has things like neutral B and side B in order to cover himself alongside having timing mixups with up B. Our usual edgeguarding will work on normal Hero, especially plasma. Is a nice way to get Hero to recover a certain way and can snipe the Heroes who are slower on the draw with their menu. Heroes should not try to recover onto stage without Zoom/Accelerate, as Ridley can easily cover those other options.
We juggle Hero pretty well like he does to us, but they can land with side B if we're not directly below them, or their nair in the event that we shield since we don't have a fast enough OoS option to punish. Also watch out for Hero’s up B OoS (especially with its ability to confirm into up smash like with platform assistance), but if you space your attacks right, it’s not a true OoS punish, and then punish his landing hard with an anti-air like up smash.
Also remember that with some exceptions, all of Hero’s menu spells are beaten by shield or jump. Remember to shield tilt at times though so you don’t get shield poked by his spells, side B, or even neutral B. Also waiting as long as possible to respawn when he has buffs active.
Only spells that beat shield is Hatchet Man, Kamikaze, and if he has both buffs; Psyche Up and Oomph. You can shield an aerial at least when he has Psyche Up, but not when he’s on the ground or has both buffs. Both Flame and Kacrackle (Ice) Slash also breaks shield if it's low and/or he has buffs, but is otherwise punished by nair OoS. The most explosive spells like Kaboom is free against shield itself, so better to jump over them. Magic Burst can be shielded though, since there is little room to avoid it.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Hero dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid.
His f-tilt 2, smashes, dair, and Hatchet Man are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, giving us the advantage in close range.
His normals are pretty punishable by our OoS aerials and shield grab. Jab 3 and f-smash are at least -25 and thus shorthop SPR punished OoS. F-tilt 2 can even by shield punished by f-smash, while his jab 3, u-tilt, d-tilt, smashes, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield to punish though, so reset there. Hero side B you also want to punish OoS when close.
For Hero's menu spells, while kaboom is plus on shield as mentioned, its weaker counterpart bang is -16. Likewise, sizz is -26 and sizzle is -30, whack is -29 and thwack is -28, magic burst is -36 to -24, flame slash is -13 and kacrackle slash is -12, and metal slash is -26. If you happen to shield any of these up close, can punish with certain OoS options accordingly, but remember to not shield against kamikazee and hatchet man, and be more wary of shielding when he has oomph and psych up buffs active.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (90-93%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (94-102%)
Major credit to the Ridcord Hero JMU section for much of this info.
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To be able to tell which one is Popo (the player) and not Nana (the AI), look at the player number (P1, P2, etc) over their head. Since it's one against two, don't throw out laggy moves or go for grabs; unless you manage to separate them which should be your goal in the match. Take out Nana first when possible so the other will be alone for the remainder of their stock (she has her own separate % from Popo that's not seen). Otherwise play a ranged game with our tilts and aerials. If hit by their desync combos, be ready to tech or DI away.
Also respect IC's grab game in how deadly it is, though helps that they have the shortest grab range. Use plasma against squal hammer (their side B) or attack from above. Watch how they may use side B in disadvantage as well, be it recovering high when possible, or to cover their landing. Either shield/avoid and punish, or space a d-tilt.
Timely mash out of being frozen by blizzard; if they use it at ledge, do a getup attack, and if they do it from afar, can jump over it. Watch out for ice shot as a means of gimping and save your jumps when possible (freezes at high % but can hit the move back at them for some damage). Aside from being a good vertical recovery, their up B can also kill well offensively, so watch out when above them.
They rely heavily on shielding. Climbers will keep their back turned from you, typically for bair pressure. When they mix that in with shielding, it's a bait to get you to try and grab them, or they'll desync and wall you out. This will be done mostly through their specials.
There's many setups to desyncing, so is up to you to understand how they desync; a common one being shorthop uair, apart from side B (squal hammer's also used to reconnect them during disadvantage). They also want to desync into a grab, which is dangerous as explained earlier, as is being above them.
Their multi-hit u-tilt is also something to watch out for, due to its combos and confirms.
D-throw doesn't hit Nana, making you vulnerable to getting smash attacked. Use f-throw (past ~15%), b-throw, or u-throw to separate them instead, making them the go-to for the MU rather than d-throw. Mix everything together and chase down Nana for a kill.
Aside from bair pressure, another reason they like to have their backs turned is so you grab the AI Climber instead of the player, letting the latter smash attack you, and they can shield you pummeling the AI, though it stops them from hitting you.
More miscellaneous and frame data
The CPU can charge a smash attack while the main Climber can move freely, so don't roll or stand and shield.
The CPU gets stuck on platforms on stages like T&C and Kalos when the Climbers get separated, making them good stages against the duo.
After their 4 alt, their lineup gets reversed; meaning that instead of Popo in the front, Nana will be in front and Popo will be the CPU. You can tell by the hairstyle when it changes, but the same rules otherwise apply when it comes to fighting them.
While grabbing against the Climbers is discouraged as aforementioned, interesting to note that when you grab them from behind, you will always grab the CPU. Also if you grab the AI this way, pummeling is effective, as it limits the main Climber from following up an attack, though don't count on it too much. Also remember to time your throw to take advantage of your invincibility frames during whichever throw animation like you would against a boomerang type projectile. That said, SPR can be as good if not better at separating since you move past the other climber when you grab one.
Also when against Icies, landing a skewer is easier since even if you hit one target with the sourspot, as long as you hit the sweet spot on something you'll get the full damage (however skewering the AI won't activate the zoom-in, but it will still do the full damage). While you shouldn't fish for it, skewer is a lot easier to use against the Climbers, plus having them at radical % difference really helps at separating the two. Skewer at max range can work when they use blizzard as well; at low % so you don't freeze.
If you condition them to not side B out of disadvantage, their other landing options are subpar, so maybe go for a quick uair which beats out their puny range before they start mashing B again.
You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %.
IC multihits- u-tilt (7 hits), side B (8 hits with both & 11 hits solo), down B (9 hits)
IC's Squall Hammer hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 3, 4, or 5 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
D-tilt is their only normal that hits our ledge hang.
They're pretty floaty and as such, their dair can be punished by u-smash OoS. Also, when both of them are together, the AI's attacks land 7 frames later. They share frame data on attacks but if only one hits something, the other will delay their attack, essentially sharing the hitlag in order to stay at a comparable level of desync.
Their side B is -21 to -24 and can crossup shield. While AI will have invincibility frames at the start of their up B, the main Climber will not, so you can attack since the main one alone will be vulnerable. Their recovery can also be body blocked.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (86-91%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (92-100%)
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Ike is more shorthop aerial happy, and we can barely punish his nair with f/d-tilt if spaced just outside its range; aside from walk/dash shielding, use said tilts while doing retreat turnarounds as such when he’s swinging. Our fair is faster than his, so use it + retreating nair to air-to-air. Like down angle Wing Blitz, his up B spikes while snapping to ledge.
Ike is vulnerable offstage, with plasma being useful as an edgeguarding tool which can easily KO if Ike doesn’t have his double jump.
Otherwise, with neutral, play defensively. Aside from what was already covered on that, there's also trying to grab or dash attack a whiffed aerial, along with plasma to force Ike to approach or jump. Remember too his f-tilt is around the same range as ours.
Avoid getting hit by Ike nair perhaps most of all. Parry & punish, or dash in, shield, and grab immediately when Ike lands or when in range. Ike will always do a falling nair, so if it becomes predictable, Ridley can do a rising aerial to stuff him out before he nairs
When Ike's above you, can hit him out of Eruption (neutral B) with uair. When recovering from ledge, can avoid getting nair'd with normal getup > shield or reading Ike’s jump > fair from ledge. SPR can be useful in recovery since Ike cannot counter it, unlike up B.
May want to focus on edgeguarding for kills, while using plasma, nair, or f-tilt at ledge. Can also use plasma to edgeguard Ike which again is useful if Ike has no 2nd jump off stage. Using it may force Ike to recover high early with side B, in which you can do one fireball to bait him or be used to 2 frame depending on timing. Can catch catch Quickdraw (Ike side B) with fair, bair, and plasma. F-smash if Ike is just above ledge level.
Can edgeguard Ike’s Aether up B by run off > nair before Ike throws his sword. Can plasma if Ike’s not directly beneath the stage, or f-tilt/f-smash if Ike goes slightly above stage level.
Like with Chrom up B, Ike's has no hitbox when rising, but when descending with it to ledge, will go through any fireballs and punish any f/d-tilt attempt, so be careful. Still, these up B's have no horizontal movement, so can easily hit Ike from above when he's at the highest point of his move, or 2-frame.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His dair if timed right along with neutral B and up B hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there.
Eruption (neutral B) has super armor on medium and full charge, frames 6 to 10.
His smashes and aerials are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His jab 3 is punished by Ridley f-smash OoS.
All his normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such, while his smashes are mostly punished by whatever. His landing aerials are usually too safe though unless you can specifically punish nair in the way that was mentioned earlier. Quickdraw can be from -28 to -22 on shield, and his up B is -29 like the jab 3. If he whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish.
His jab 2/3, smashes, neutral B, side B, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (93-96%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (97-108%)
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info.
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Neutral
Be aware that Alolan Whip has armor after the initial frames. You'll need to use moves that deal at least 12% damage or more to break through it. Rid d-tilt may not be sufficient for that, but can still lift him off the ground if you hit him with it during AW’s initial frames. Only the tipper of Ridley f-tilt and nair (i.e. retreating nair) can beat out side B, while subtle moves like Rid jab or u-tilt will be no good against it. Don't try to spot-dodge it either.
Whenever you get caught in Alolan Whip, have to DI by pressing the left stick in the opposite direction of his initial lunge; if you aim the stick the wrong way, will get hit farther than normal. If you're initially facing left before the move, hold left, and likewise if you were facing the right, then hold right.
Like Alolan Whip, his up B Cross Chop has some armor; the same amount after the initial frames, so if he ever uses it as an offensive mixup on stage, try to dodge it more often than challenging it, although Ridley uair and u-smash can still beat it out if timed right. Shielding it is not advised due to the final hit that can poke.
Same goes for his neutral B Darkest Lariat. Aside from the kill power it's a good get-off-me tool on its own but like other moves of its kind, can be whiff punished with Skewer or whatnot. Don't try to challenge Lariat when it's initially active though, as it's invincible. Also be careful of Incineroar's who mash this after whiffs, as it's great for catching slow punishes. Lariat may also be used as a landing mixup.
Other than that, spend less time shielding against Incineroar and more time moving around him. As long as you properly respect Alolan Whip and by extension his fair & grab game, can still outspace and wall him out as effectively as any other brawler type character, especially with how slow he is. If you Plasma him on stage though, beware that he might Revenge it. That said, he can only absorb 2 of our Plasma shots without getting hit, so 3 or more will always hit him. His best counterplay is to jump over and Revenge the last one or two fireballs.
Disadvantage
Be aware that Alolan Whip can catch neutral getup, so be wary of using that getup at high %. Lariat is good for catching delayed/baited neutral getups, so don't mash. A timed getup attack or ledge drop SPR will beat his neutral B. Also be aware of his nair which they'll use to bait getups that they'll Lariat. Be careful about drop down aerials; they're good at swatting away Incineroar but lose badly to trades or Alolan Whip. Beware of using an up B poke since he can Revenge counter that at ledge.
When off stage, don't be predictable with SPR out of hitstun, lest you get punished by his aerials. Counter is the biggest threat off stage. It has fixed knockback though, so you've just gotta be ready to tech and to avoid Incin with almost full Revenge.
Far as juggling, Incineroar's uair is really nasty. Combos into itself and is fast and wide. Would be frustrating to get around if Incineroar himself was fast. As it stands, is something you'll have to look out for when trying to jump over or land near him. Land away from him and be aware of Alolan Whip and dash attack to catch landings. Be extra careful with landing aerials and using shield because of this.
Advantage
When you're in advantage and he's at ledge, main thing to watch out for is ledge drop Alolan Whip. Be cautious about using shield to trap and bait. Otherwise, Plasma away. Rely on ledge trapping at lower % to get a hang of their preferred options.
Similar to Ridley, can punish Incineroar side B out of hitstun off stage with aerials if he gets predictable with it. When juggling him, mainly watch out for Revenge, and once Incin starts spamming Revenge when being juggled, that's an easy empty hop > up smash punish due to conditioning.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Incineroar’s intangibility-
- D-tilt on the legs during frames 8-11.
- U-tilt on the head during frames 6-11.
- U-smash and up B on the arms during frames 13-18 and 13-26 respectively.
Incin neutral B is 6 hits.
SPR Incin on plats if worried about him revenge countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt).
Against Incin as well as some other brawlers and floaties, we have a bit more leeway to dash dance as a bait, with how slower they usually are.
Incin side B is mashable, before he releases you toward the ropes.
When he’s not trying to get you with side B or fair which are easily whiff punished, the moves he’ll want to use most at low % are d-tilt, uair, and grabs.
His up throw can kill.
His dash attack goes further than you’d think. Has a pretty good burst range, so be aware when landing and trying to space around him.
His d-smash and up B are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Incineroar's normals are at least punished by nair OoS, and jab 3 & d-smash are punished by SH SPR OoS. His dash attack will cross you up when shielded, so quickly turn around and punish accordingly. His jab 2/3, u-tilt, dash attack, smashes, and ledge getup attack are also u-tilt punishable on shield should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
His landing aerials besides dair are too safe on shield though, so go for a reset there. Darkest Lariat and Cross Chop are shield punishable with f/d-smash, etc, but the latter is better whiff punished.
You want to be otherwise cautious with shielding against Incin anyway due to side B as mentioned, and his d-smash shield damage similar to K Rool's. Speaking of side B, if you space yourself right when Incin goes for that burst option (whether on ground or in the air), can punish with Skewer, and likewise as a whiff punish for Revenge.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (98-101%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (102-110%)
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Neutral
Perhaps the most important thing to remember with the Inkling matchup, is don't get roller'd. Always be aware of the possibility of roller, be it when Inkling takes horizontal knockback, as a landing option, from ledge, or after a bait. Because of this, you need to be careful of where & when you dash since it removes your ability to shield instantly, apart from dash shielding. D/u-tilt & u-smash OoS are true punishes if you react quick enough, aside from nair & grab. Also keep in mind Inkling has many moves that will put you in a tech situation which they can chase with roller and will catch most if not all tech options depending on position. It can actually be optimal to occasionally miss a tech so the roller won’t bury you.
While Inkling can act 5 frames earlier after refilling ink thanks to a final patch buff, the ink refill itself is still punishable. It has about as much lag as landing up B, so if they use it too close you can punish with dash attack, SPR, ect. Keep an eye on their ink tank. Recharging it is still laggy and without it they lose some of their best options (jab, splat bomb, roller, weaker smashes).
For neutral, plasma isn’t very good, and up angle f-tilt can be frustrating to anti-air with because of Inkling’s gun disjoint with bair and such. Inkling builds damage in specific ways with jab (rapid jab skewer punish applies), grab, and bair. Your goal should be to avoid these moves and space around them with your range. Jab and grab are pretty self explanatory, just use range and speed to stay out of their bubble.
Bair is much more difficult to play around because of its speed, safety, and weird attack angle. F-tilt when spaced well can beat bair, but it’s easy to get your arm clipped when trying to rely on angled f-tilt. Inkling bair is a move you’ll have to predict and read to play around. Remember your fair if they’re abusing landing bair on you and force them to use less safe rising bair's.
Inkling nair and bair have to be greatly respected on shield. Our OoS is too slow to reliably punish them, so focus on getting out of the situation with shield jump or something rather than punishing it directly.
Inkling’s dash in general is really good, can be hard to predict, and can low profile some moves. Ridley doesn’t have many moves Inkling can low profile, but it can make spacing aerials harder. You can attempt to clip dashes with tilts if they are abusing it. Also differentiate between their dash and rolls (in animation and sound cues), as they look similar.
Also with neutral, jump often. Plenty empty hops too, throwing hitboxes around here and there; mostly fair & retreating nair for pressure, and rely on falling nair if you see an approach coming. If they shield it and it's decently spaced, you're still safe since their OoS is slow. If they then try to punish your jumps and jumping around a lot more in general, you go back to whiff punishing from the ground.
You want the her to jump around because that's when neutral is in our favor, whiff punishing them is way easier than guessing when they'll dash in, grab, roller, etc. You can still play grounded at early %, but at least in more dodgy %'s like when Booyah is possible, use jump. You can shield some, but still have to watch out for grab u-throw combos, which is why it's better to jump against to account for both grab and roller.
Inkling neutral B has a windbox; you need to pay attention if Inkling is angling it up or down. If it's being kept down or you know they'll aim it down, jump-in's work. If they keep it up to try and cover jumps, walk and d-tilt at max range to avoid the windbox from pushing you out.
The bomb when they throw it above doesn't immediately explode on contact. Also, sometimes it won't hit Ridley on ledge unless it'll explode as it's close to the ground.
Bair combos aren't true, Inkling doesn't get a true followup most of the time out of a bair at many percentages and sometimes you can even hit them when they try to hit you again.
Disadvantage
Don’t DI Inkling’s mid % combos out, as you’ll find yourself dying to a strong fair at 70 if you do. DI the low % combos out, then swap to DI in so you don’t die to fair; can also take stage position into account.
For ledgetrapping, Inkling’s will use uncharged splat bomb similarly to Dedede’s up gordos. Its purpose is to cover jump, neutral getup, and waiting. It doesn’t bounce however which opens up ledge jump sooner than gordos. Getup attack can power through splat bomb if it makes contact with the hitbox before our intangibility expires. You can use this to swat away Inkling's who are abusing splat bomb to trap you. Ledge jump nair is also pretty good for dealing with splat bomb, but just be mindful of Inkling bair and don’t spam it.
Off stage, when trying to recover low with up B and they bair you, always be ready to tech it from the side of stage. Will keep you alive for awhile. Splat bomb can kinda beat Wing Blitz, as it’ll slow down when it hits the top of WB but will still hit Ridley when it makes contact with his hurtbox. Because of this, should be careful with holding down to peak up B’s hitbox when they use splat bomb, as it can make hitting Ridley’s hurtbox much more possible.
For juggling, Inkling uair is slow. They'll focus more on catching landings and attempts to land with attacks. Their dash will make timing landing aerials harder and tracking their movement will take more focus. Our dair can punish overzealous use of uair.
Advantage
Remember that Inkling up B has a hitbox when landing with it on stage. Also them being able to use splat bomb from ledge or as a landing/B-reverse mixup.
Inkling is fairly floaty, so they have a relatively high FAF (first actionable frame) on their directional airdodge. This opens them up to easier frame traps.
One other thing that people tend to forget, try to avoid any ink on the ground which slows you down. Jump over if necessary until it goes away. Also, tipper d-tilt reflects splat bomb.
When they use roller off stage, can watch for the animation to end where they jump after and go off to punish that jump with a nair/fair. When trying to 2 frame her like with f-tilt, wait for the sound of their up B.
Inkling is a very difficult character to edgeguard if they're below the ledge because they can stall a lot with side B jumps. It's not worth to go for unless Inkling still hasn't reached the bottom blastzone.
Up B can wall Inkling very well from recovering too if they side B early because they can't stop their momentum out of the small jump they do out of side B while being safe and letting you ledgetrap if they go low.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Inkling dair & roller hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid there.
You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %.
Her f-smash, u-smash, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 1 > f-smash, for covering delayed getup.
Her d-tilt & uair are 2 hits.
Aside from rapid jab skewer or d-smash punish (shorthop skewer OoS being more consistent), her normals and roller are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and her up smash is punished by Rid f-smash when shielded. Her dash attack can crossup your shield a bit, so react and punish accordingly. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though as mentioned, so go for a reset there.
Her gentleman jab/rapid jab finisher, smashes, roller, and ledge getup attack (-28) are also shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (85-88%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (89-97%)
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info, and also some credit to Zant for the neutral and edgeguarding tips.
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With slingshot fair/bair, have to observe their patterns with it, find an opening, and adapt. Aside from walking and crouching methodically, don't forget you have dash shield and jump OoS. Once you close in, can do a double jump if necessary to get over the slingshot, and do a landing aerial while they're in end lag or cross them up.
Try and defend yourself with an aerial if they attempt to slingshot you off stage.
You can shield the fishing rod, and stay low when recovering to avoid it off stage, or if she's at ledge, do a beefy up B. Also remember she can tether grab with the fish hook when she's off stage.
Either use a solid aerial (or f-tilt if you're at ledge) to hit the balloons on their up B or go around them and hit the character themselves while they're recovering.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Her dair hits us under plats, so still shield or avoid it.
You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Isabelle's normals are punished by nair OoS. Her landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset there. Her f-tilt, dash attack, f-smash. and d-smash are shield punished by u-tilt should she be at u-tilt > uair kill %. Her d-smash & ledge getup attack (-25) are also punished by shorthop SPR OoS.
Ridley kill confirm-
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (83-87%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (88-97%)
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Slightly Winning
Respect her aerials and ability to dominate the air with her air stats. This is balanced by her ground stats being one of the slowest however which is why you rarely fight her on the ground between that and her 5 jumps. She can crouch to low profile some moves though.
She'll wait for you to whiff and fly in & punish (her wall of pain speaks for itself), so time your anti-airs (i. e. u-tilt). Also understand how she chooses to approach from the air in neutral.
Her 9-hit dair is a good combo starter, and confirms into Rest (is invulnerable on frames 1-27). Also respect her bair as a potential kill move.
Far as her Pound side B, respect its shield damage and as a neutral tool with a lingering hitbox that combos (she'll DJ out of it or land with an aerial). Shielding when not cornered is a solid option, but Pound keeps you on your toes.
When she uses Sing, shield and angle it if you have to, or otherwise roll/jump away after shielding. Sing has 34 frames of end lag, so take advantage of your range. Also hold shield if she uses Sing at ledge. Don't shield Rollout though; treat it the same as you would Yoshi's Egg Roll by jumping over.
If you break her shield, get gets KO'd automatically, though this is rare. Her nair OoS is good at tech chases, so don't miss tech, and punish OoS rising aerials as always.
Her throws are weak and don't lead into true combos, so don't worry much about getting grabbed. When she recovers, can try to footstool.
In disadvantage, her d-smash hits ledge hang, and likes to ledgetrap with nair which covers most options. They can mix it up with a fullhop nair too so they can DJ out of it, but watch if they over-commit. When being juggled, we can use dair as a mixup against her landing uair if she's expecting an airdodge.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Dash attack will beat Jigglypuff's shorthop if spaced.
Her d-smash, dair, and Sing can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there.
Against a Puff with good execution, most of the match is either shielding/crouching while doing either d-tilt or retreating nairs (to neutralize more of their specials) and f-tilts. If your shield is too low you’ll get poked by rising dair and Pound, and that’s where the “cutscene” starts.
Puff has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps.
Her Sing and Rest are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than hers, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Her normals besides DA and smashes are too safe, so reset. Same with landing aerials besides dair. Puff d-smash & ledge getup attack (-26) are punished by SH SPR OoS. Her dash attack, f/d-smash, Rest, and ledge getup attack are u-tilt shield punished.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (70-75%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (76-83%)
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Even
Gameplan
- Joker has a mediocre shield game similar to Ridley. His fastest OoS option is up air at frame 8, which only hits directly above Joker. Then his next fastest OoS options are at frame 10, being fair, bair, and u-smash. Abuse disjoints and big hitboxes to avoid getting punished out of shield by Joker. Spacing can really disrupt Joker's gameplan. All tilt's sweetspots, drift back nair, landing nair, drift back landing fair, and spaced landing bair are safe on Joker's shield.
- Can frame trap Joker dash attack out of shield with SPR if the first active frame of the second hit lands on shield. Will most likely happen if the first hit lands shield.
- Joker gets full charge of rebels gauge after only absorbing a stream of 3 fireballs with his down B.
Joker charges his meter gauge either with down B when hit (observe when he uses it and wait it out before attacking) or to a lesser degree over time and by taking damage. Wait as long as possible to respawn when he has arsene active, and make arsene go away as fast with good neutral. Many Jokers tend to be aggressive whenever they have arsene, unsafely spamming smash attacks, which you can easily shield or avoid and then punish.
We can edgeguard him fairly well too, especially when he has arsene. Edgeguard or ledgetrap before he can activate it again. If he does have it again though and if you're good at your plasma edgeguarding, you can loop arsene recovery until it's gone again, though the initial period of arsene up B invulnerability may allow him to get through some plasma. Arsene up B is also vulnerable to f-smash 2 framing, down angle f-tilt, etc. If he tether grabs to ledge where you can’t plasma due to ledge intangibility, wait and try a d-smash instead when he runs out or otherwise CLS (crouch ledge slip) nair/fair him before he fully pulls himself up or SPR/jump plasma if he tethers high, depending.
Also respect his counter when he has arsene active and his side B which you can shield (watch out for at ledge too when he uses it off stage), though may be better to just avoid it since he may want you to shield it so he can grab, and he gets plenty damage off of grabs. His other moves like 2 hit f-tilt, crossup d-tilt (when shielding it, remember to do a quick turnaround attack or grab like when punishing other sliding d-tilts), nair, bair, and gun he may also use to condition a shield for grabs. Observe how they play there.
Can also clank with side B, and if Joker uses it a lot, can shorthop SPR him from the ground to counteract it, or d-smash if close/WB if far at high %. Speaking of grabs, if you grab him with arsene out, do u-throw, as its high damage output takes away a good chunk of meter.
When recovering, get a feel of their off stage edgeguarding, and mix it up to avoid the downward aerial version of his gun and getting potentially gimped. With Joker combos, DI away from plats, jump to avoid diagonal grapple, SDI up and left/right if he does uairs (or nair if diagonally above), and stay out of his dash attack range when you get out of said combos. Despite acting as a tether grab, grapple hook can be shielded like Isabelle's fishing rod.
Basically in this matchup, you have to emphasize not getting opened up and edgeguarding Joker, so have good shield discipline all around and especially respect arsene Joker's landings. Don't try to challenge him because you'll explode if he hits you with landing fair or dair.
Pay attention to how your opponent recovers and how they deal with plasma. Do they like going low? Do they immediately jump out of hitstun? Do they stall with guns? Gather as much info to net those edgeguards. Also, against arsene if they hug the stage to recover you can do SPR to ledge holding down (thus bypassing it) to catch them and then stage spike them. If you mistime, you can get a ledge trump.
Try not to recover low against arsene because of the counter, but sometimes the Joker players forget about it.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Multi-hits: His fair, f-tilt, dash attack, and d-smash are 2 hits, while his u-tilt is 5 hits.
Joker uair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
You can do a beefy side B (hold down during SPR to bypass ledge) to catch their arsene up B recovery, along with any directional airdodge toward ledge. Be ready to tech though in the case of a trade situation. Beefy side B won't grab if they still have intangibility while at ledge, but unlikely to happen if they're at high %.
His u-smash and d-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
SPR Joker on plats if worried about him tetrakarn countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt).
Joker's intangibility-
- Gun dash forward, frames 4-13. Gun dash back, frames 5-14. Gun jump from ground, frames 1-6.
- Arsene up B, frames 3-25.
Other notes on Joker’s gun: Hide under plats when they descend with gun or off to the side if no plats. Watch out for that option when juggling him and attack from the side. If recovering, try to do so under the lip of the stage to avoid the gun edgeguarding; avoid Kalos and Yoshi’s against Joker due to the walls but save your jumps when possible and be ready to tech regardless. Be slow to challenge if at all since he’s intangible on frames 1-6 with gun jump from ground as mentioned.
Gun dashing and whatnot can be tricky but you can still close some space since it doesn't cause flinch until up close. Gun range is effectively reduced at lower percent because the farther hitbox doesn't make people flinch. If he uses gun from ledge drop, can punish a ledge regrab like with smashes at high %, or up smash or grab OoS if he does gun dash from ledge.
At around mid percent, the purple (middle hitbox) makes people flinch, but before that only the red hitbox up close does anything. If you’re within the purple, you’re already in your desired f-tilt/d-tilt/skewer and burst range anyway. A spaced d-smash can also punish gun spammers given that you’re not flinching, as well as a little plasma to fire back and force an option out of them. See the gun hitboxes on UFD for reference.
His jab 3 & u-tilt are punished by shorthop SPR OoS. His normals and point-blank side B are punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his up smash when shielded is punished by our f-smash. His landing aerials are too safe on shield though, so reset.
His side B's also minus enough on shield to be punished by dash grab, dash attack, or jump OoS into SPR if he's nearby. Same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %.
His jab 3, u-tilt, crossup d-tilt, dash attack, smashes, point-blank side B, and ledge getup attack are also punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. If he has arsene and whiffs a counter nearby, skewer punish.
On a side note, bair on Joker’s shield if spaced makes him whiff bair OoS due to hurtbox shift.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (84-87%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (88-96%)
Credit to Paco on some of the nuances of neutral against arsene Joker as well as pushing your advantage.
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Even
Gameplan
Shield State Against Kazuya and Neutral
All of Kazuya's aerials are safe on shield while landing besides dair. He can EWGF after a safe landing aerial to go through all of our aggressive OoS. We can spotdodge or roll away. Be careful of spotdodging if the Kazuya decides to wait or delay the landing of an aerial to be active as spotdodge is over. Probably better to not instantly spotdodge and to time the spotdodge for a reversal. Or want to be safe, a full hop away should allow a reset in neutral, or maybe a reversal.
If recovering high from off stage, watch out for his neutral B which can snipe you diagonally when he’s standing near ledge. For Kazuya laser stalling from off stage, can airdodge through it and then aerial him, aside from shielding before going in like with ROB. Also expect a laser whenever he does up throw and DI away from it.
Aside from d-tilt, crouching down-forward tilt (tombstone crusher), command input 1 (EWGF), command input 2 (Dragon Uppercut), and command input 3 (Spinning Demon to Left Hook) which gives full body intangibility, and up-back tilt (jump side kick) that gives intangibility on both legs, you want to anti-air with our up angle f-tilt when he uses up-forward tilt (roundhouse to triple spin kicks) or dash attack; since those two would go over our d-tilt.
Also remember the damage-based armor he has with his smashes & Heaven's Door (down B) and use something like tipper f-tilt if anything. Kaz uair has leg intangibility too, so don't challenge with a move if he juggles with it so much maneuvering around him; same for when he juggles from the ground, so avoid landing on him. Otherwise, remember that his crouch dash only has leg intangibility during the 1st half, so can still d-tilt him during the 2nd half of it.
- Aside from Gates of Hell, can also tech from his d-tilt, up angle back tilt, crouching forward & back attacks, both dash attacks, nair, dair, smashes, f-throw, neutral B, command input 3 (Spinning Demon to Left Hook), and side taunt. His f-tilt, back tilt, fair, bair, and air side B you tech at later % as well. Kazuya's like doing side B as a ledge drop option and maybe a landing mixup, so shield that if you expect it, but if charging plasma and his side B causes plasma discharge, both will have similar amount of endlag.
Getting tripped by Kazuya's down angle back tilt or any character move that trips for that matter, puts you in something akin to a tech chase situation, where you can either neutral getup while moving a bit left or right depending on the control stick, or getup attack (usually too slow to counteract a Kazuya follwup), both both options offer some intangibility like with ledge. Back to Gates of Hell, also note that it throws you backwards. If you know you'll be knocked off stage by it, don't try to tech then as it results in an airdodge instead. DI up in that case.
- During hitstun when being combo'd by Kazuya (from his command input 1, double hit u-tilt, d-throw, or jab), also remember there's a blue line to look at which indicates where you DI. Mix up DI in and out to throw them off, or DI one direction and switch to the other (left or right) at the last second as aforementioned. DI'ing in and then out at the last second seems to work well particularly in avoiding a kill % combo, but mix it up if they catch on. These methods of DI even work when you're in crumple state from moves like his grounded side B and uncrouching attack.
Command input 1 or Electric Wind God Fist (EWGF) can also push you back if you’re shielding, making it safe on hit, and if shielding at ledge you’ll be pushed off, allowing for a Kazuya edgeguard. That said, after shielding it, we can buffer a d-tilt and only get hit by command input 3, sour f-smash, up-forward tilt, or dash attack. As a heavy we may trip from shielding EWGF too, but crouching from behind or a timely d-tilt can make it whiff, though is niche.
Advantage
- Can only do two aerials from ledge jump except for bair and dair (being only one). Can act out of rising bair before landing from ledge jump. Can autocancel nair, fair, and uair from ledge jump on SBF. Can cancel ledge jump with double jump to gain more control of aerial drift (Ridley can do this too!).
If Kazuya's at 100% where his rage drive activates, get him off stage if you're in advantage and plasma loop him until he gets to around 140% where his ability wears off. He loses it earlier if he whiffs grabs. That said, if he's at 100% and you're in neutral, then play very defensively; don't use any laggy moves, and don't get baited into doing something risky, lest you get caught in the rage command grab. Also remember it has super armor when he uses it unlike the regular version of his down B which is only 10% damage worth of armor, so if he uses rage drive when you use like a tilt, it'll out-prioritize your move and grab you. Space well and don't mistime an attack. Far as keeping him at bay with projectiles, some flickshot plasma (namely fullhop half-charge at least with the flickshot) on stage may work if you have room to retreat with it.
If juggling him and he lands with rage drive still active, don’t overextend. Move away and go back to neutral or he’ll likely grab you. A timed spot-dodge is the main way to avoid the grab if he’s still close to you after landing. Also, Kazuya can't use rage drive in the air; only part of rage he can use in the air is the damage buff. If you're getting hit by rage drive, then he is landing first. Nothing about juggling Kazuya changes once he turns red.
His regular down B in the air only does an increased 2% or so with rage. A little bit of damage + Kazuya in rage means you can't be hit by a random touch of death, because EWGF will send too high, and Kazuya down B has a mediocre hitbox, so at that range you're asking for worse.
With ledgetrapping Kazuya, gotta be real safe against because the risk of eating a side B is absolutely destructive. Wouldn’t ledgetrap him the traditional way, but rather corner pressure him, if you know he gets to ledge without getting 2 framed or edgeguarded. Stand at max range of side B (about half a stage which is also outside of the range of his rage drive command grab) and stuff out his approaches. If he tries to recover high on stage, can get an early kill by landing an SPR into jump release nair.
Disadvantage
One other thing about Kazuya rage drive, when caught by it, DI ↙️ or ↘️ to survive up to around 75-85% range; similar to how you DI Bowser's command grab.
With Kazuya down B, aside from DI'ing it from on stage like other command grabs, Kazuya dies first at the bottom blast zone and you can recover if you react quick enough.
Aside from Kazuya d-smash being able to break shield, also be aware that it can spike if used at ledge, so be aware of it when timing your recovery. His nair when used off stage can also spike, but can be difficult for him to space.
Miscellaneous and frame data
While you can obviously SDI out of Kazuya's 10 hit jab, it's easier said than done, as they can require 3, 4, or 5 SDI inputs, each hit of which only has 2 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. That said, Kazuya's other moves you can do a minimum of at least one SDI input to try and get out of his usual combos, aside from the standard DI method with Kazuya as explained earlier. SDI's appear to work even better than the regular DI, for that matter. Dash walk SDI particularly is said to work well against the usual Kazuya stuff involving EWGF, in which it's best to shield right after you escape the EWGF followup (i.e. crouch jab or nair), but can try flick SDI too if that's what you're more comfortable with.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
One way of baiting out laser before edgeguarding him is getting on ledge, that way you're still in a dangerous position and can punish what he does after.
Skewer can beat out Rage Drive if timed and positioned right. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His side taunt, crouching down-forward tilt (Tombstone Crusher), and f-smash are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Our jab 1 starts faster than his, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
Aside from the back-tilt kick, crouching back-tilt spin kick, and double dash attack (also acts as a reflector), Kazuya's normals are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab. His landing aerials besides dair (-30 like Bowser) are expectedly too safe, so reset there.
His down-forward tilt known as tsunami kick (first hit is -19 but watch out for 2nd hit which isn't & can break shield, so parry if possible), up-forward tilt known as roundhouse to triple spin kicks (does plenty shield damage, so don't stay in shield if low or it'll break & parry if possible), side taunt, crouching down-forward tilt known as tombstone crusher, regular dash attack, up-smash, command input 3 (spinning demon to left hook which also does plenty shield damage for a 2-hit move & parry if possible), landing dair, point-blank neutral B, side B, and ledge getup attack are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
- While command input 2 (dragon uppercut) is -22 on shield, he'll use rage drive with the input instead while in rage mode. You'll have to watch out for rage drive regardless during the u-tilt > uair kill % windows; that said, can easily whiff punish a EWGF or something with u-tilt also.
Point-blank neutral B, side B, and landing dair you can shield punish with f-smash as well. If you happen to shield his similarly unsafe up B when nearby, can try to catch his landing, though remember he's not helpless; can still laser or aerial after, though he can't use his side B. Likewise if he uses side B to recover horizontally, he can't up B after.
- While Kazuya side B looks similar to his f-smash in animation (the latter of which armors through u-tilt), remember they like to side B as a landing mixup or from ledge or off stage depending, so if you shield in either situation, you can u-tilt or f-smash. The latter 2-frames a Kazuya side B as well.
On a somewhat related side note, Kazuya can use his double jump after up B (typically used in the form of aerials), but he can’t use his DJ again until after landing.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (100-106%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (101-115%)
Major credit goes to the collective Ridcord for a good chunk of the information that was gathered here.
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To start off with their differences from Ryu, Ken's f-smash is shorter and his up B has fire. Also Ryu's hits have more knockback, making Ken's combo game more consistent by comparison. Ken's ground movement is slightly faster too, and while Ryu is a shield breaker, Ken is more of a shield poker.
While they have a lot of combo starters, they generally like to start with an aerial as they jump toward you, so shield, dodge, or anti-air their approach. DI/SDI away when you start getting combo'd, but mix it up so they don't catch on. There's also brief windows of opportunity to escape from a combo in the middle of or right after a transition like when they switch from jab to a special, or sometimes right after the special finishes.
With their powerful shield breaks and pokes, they'll generally go for those instead of grabs since their throws aren't that strong, except in doubles where their d-throw can shield break if shielding when they use it on a teammate nearby (same applies to FFA). While you can shield to bait them and react after, retreating nair will otherwise mostly be your new shield in this matchup.
Also respect their corner pressure, as they never face away from you when moving back and forth due to being shotos, allowing them to react to your attempts to escape the corner. If you jump over them, be ready to dodge or attack due to their uair and up B. There's also boxing them out with certain moves depending on the space between you and them. The more experienced you are at playing in the corner though, the more adept you become at being in that position, like using different ledge options, or jump in place to bait them and punish.
Their tatsu side B is one thing you can reliably shield, being anywhere from -25 to -36. Can also hit them out of it, but be careful since they can attack shortly after finishing the move, leading into more combos. They don't get as much out of hadouken, but still watch how they use it. Do shield or avoid the Ryu fireball though since it's a multi-hit.
- Can also shield their dash attack & smashes that are in the -20 range, though watch out for d-smash as something that can be combo’d into a special.
If they notice you DI'ing up like at high %, they may just up B kill you. DI away from it and airdodge at the right moment.
For their down B focus attack, watch out for them using it while landing to block aerials and change their movement direction, but can beat it by either grabbing (SPR included), whiff punishing (though they may cancel it and move left or right), and using a multi-hit move like jab, fair, or plasma.
For weaknesses, they struggle to land and are easy to juggle, with focus attack being their only mixup which you can punish as aforementioned. We camp them well too with our ranged moves & plasma. Their edgeguarding is poor too, though their dair can spike but is hard to land. They'll more likely go for a ledge trump which you can avoid by delaying your recovery or jumping over the ledge. Lastly, their poor recovery.
For f-tilt (down angle) 2 framing, remember that you’re aiming for the end of their up B, not the time where most characters snap to ledge. Shotos will float for just a second before grabbing ledge and that’s where you aim for; being slightly late or early there is of little consequence.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Ryu/Ken normals that can combo into specials-
- Neutral attack 1 and 2 (tapped)
- Neutral attack (close, held)
- F-tilt (close, tapped)
- U-tilt (held or tapped)
- D-tilt (held or tapped)
- D-smash
- Nair
- Fair
- Uair
- Bair
- Dair
Up tilt (light) requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 9 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
The tatsu side B has leg intangibility, so don't try to hit it with d-tilt when active. Is thusly recommended to use up angle f-tilt if you challenge with it at all. Can also get an easy 2-frame on them when they use tatsu and get a free edgeguard because of how much end lag tatsu has.
SDI in on tatsu which can create fallouts and can usually mash an option because they're negative afterwards. If they up tilt, then you can SDI up & away because proximity jab doesn't work as well if you do that, and if the Ken/Ryu doesn't know how to deal with it, just mash jump + nair out of the early % combos.
The versions of their up B also have different invulnerability frames, as do some of their normals.
Skewer can break focus attack even if they charge it to stage 3, if you find an opportunity to use it there.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (92-95%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (96-108%)
Credit to rydra on the specifics about tatsumaki (Ken's side B).
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Gameplan
The general plan is to camp Dedede out and keep gordos at bay. Play lame, as there's rarely any reason you should engage him. His approach is worse than ours which we must abuse.
Dedede’s f-tilt slightly outreaches us on the ground, so stay out of his range and wait for him to push a button; he's very susceptible to being whiff punished. F-tilt and d-tilt are especially unsafe on whiff if you stay outside his range. That said, still have to watch for gordo. React to it and hit it back, there isn’t much reason to shield it when you’re close enough for a true reflect punish.
Dedede is one of the most lacking characters in shield safety, with only three important moves being safe enough on block. Bair is his safest and most useful move to space which when landed with, is normally unpunishable. F-tilt isn’t as safe as you’d think, being punishable by our d-tilt OoS at most ranges. The only time you can’t punish is when it’s been max spaced (right out of d-tilt's reach). Gordo toss + hammer hit is safe on our shield; it’s -11 and pushes us too far back to punish with nair OoS. Everything else you can punish though.
Dedede is slow on the ground and even slower in the air. Use your speed advantage to stay out of his range and force him to come to you. Plasma is good at keeping gordo back and forcing Dedede to jump which allows you to chase his landing with more plasma or with anti-airs.
When Dedede is airborne, you don’t just run right in. You wait and see what he does and get a feel for his preferred mixups. Dedede's will use their jumps to bait out aggressive options, mixing in fastfalls to trick you into thinking they will land (you would think he's a floaty but he's not). Your options for this is either stay away and push them towards the corner, stay just out of bair range and whiff punish a landing aerial, or close the gap and make them mis-space an aerial. Dedede's will either be landing with bair or nair; nair has combos and bair kills.
Watch for landing Inhale, as they can B-reverse it to mix you up.
Disadvantage
Watch out for gordos coming at you at ledge. Take your time and don’t rush. Dedede thrives off making you panic and choose unwise options, so assess the situation, check his gordo spacing (learn the spacings that smash and tilted u-gordo will fall on ledge), watch what he’s doing once gordo is out, and plan accordingly.
Abuse ledge invulnerability to give you time to choose and see what they’re going for. The only time you should be using options quickly is when Dedede uses gordo after you’ve grabbed ledge and is in getup attack range. Ledge drop aerials can be good at swatting gordos back, but have to watch for f-tilts or slamming dash attacks. We can also ledge drop nair and soft land onto stage, allowing us to shield if they catch the gordo and throw it back with side B. The timing is tight, but another thing to possibly put in your arsenal. That aside, his dash attack can hit us on ledge and is active for 13 frames or so. This will eat ledge stalling, ledge jumps, and ledge drops. React with getup attack if possible. His f-tilt will cover most if not all ledge options but its reward is small, so don’t get frustrated from being looped by f-tilt ledge traps and don’t get predictable.
Jet Hammer is fear inducing and covers a lot of area. Full charge will break shields and it can hit Ridley’s ledge hang, along with having super armor frame 1 of release until the hitbox comes out. Ledge jump is generally what you’d want to do to avoid Jet Hammer, but gordo can complicate things. Ledge getup attack is nice but Dedede can react and armor it. Neutral getup is only good if it’s not fully charged and they mistime it. Ledge roll is reactable and a bad ledge option of ours anyway. The occasional ledge drop is also good. Can ledge drop SPR if feeling lucky or they whiff it.
Off stage against Dedede is not the worst, but there's still a threat of him intercepting you if you get careless. Dedede’s aerials are disjointed enough to at least trade with forward Wing Blitz and he’s generally pretty good at catching horizontal recoveries. He’ll use gordo to force you into a situation where you have to jump or fall below it so he can follow and hit a fair to send you too far out to recover, if you're not dead already.
Dedede’s dair can beat our up B, but is so slow it should never be a problem unless he hits you during startup. Use Wing Blitz under the lip of the stage to protect yourself from falling u-gordos. Gordo has a 50% chance to stick, but if this happens your options are limited. If you have both your jumps, you can attempt to wait it out, as ledge stick lasts about 3 seconds. If not, all you can do is recover super wide and hit the gordo as far from ledge as possible, which makes the followup slightly harder for Dedede. Jet Hammer can actually 2-frame us if you do a beefy up B, so be careful when he has it out.
With how lacking Dedede's run and air speed is compared to us, his juggles are lacking. That said, his 8-hit uair is real vertically disjointed but lacks horizontal reach, so don’t be directly above Dedede. His u-tilt headbutt is fast, intangible, and kills at decent percents, don’t land on platforms above Dedede. Up smash is big and kills early as you'd expect. Don’t land on top of him period. He can also circumvent his subpar juggles with gordos which he'll use to wall off areas of stage and make you want to land where he wants you. Don’t move towards Dedede if it can be avoided, try and land further into gordo's path and shield or reflect it. Gong to ledge is also viable, as he will not have time to setup a gordo ledgetrap from this.
Advantage
Our d-tilt can catch everything of his from ledge except jump. Spam plasma for both edgeguarding & ledgetrapping and loop it for as much damage as you can. Dedede has a harder time than most in getting around it and doesn’t have a real counter to it besides making you mistime it. When percents are higher, you can start hitting them past ledge invulnerability with the last few fireballs so it rules out their ledge stalling. Similar to us, Dedede can shark the ledge pretty well. Uair is super active and fair hits forward. They can even ledge drop gordo toss and roll it across the stage and regrab ledge. He has 4 midair jumps, so wait him out and punish his regrab. Just be aware of up B over the stage.
Besides plasma, it's hard to challenge Dedede's recovery off stage. Dedede has a bad 2-frame animation, so it’s super easy to clip him with plasma. After a plasma hits, you’re put in a small mixup situation where you have to guess if the Dedede will delay his recovery, recover quickly, or if they’ll recover over the ledge and decide if or when to press B and inhale. You can also just 2-frame Dedede with mostly whatever; f-smash, f-tilt, d-tilt, and d-smash all work great. If Dedede is using gordos while falling to get you away from ledge, go out there and hit him. Move lasts for almost a full second so there’s definitely time to punish him.
Dedede falls fast (with one of the highest fall speeds in the game to boot) and has jumps but he can't move much horizontally with his air speed. Watch for his landing aerials and neutral B and keep him in the air. If you hit Dedede from diagonals, it’s hard for him to put a meaningful hitbox out there quickly, especially from behind. Bair is slow, so it’s possible to nair him before it comes out to send him towards ledge. Our u-tilt and u-smash are great at keeping up the pressure along with their own intangibility, but be careful, Dedede’s are bred to bait such options with their jumps and whiff punish with a landing aerial. Stay patient and count his jumps.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His dair and up B can hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there.
Respect his grab range.
SPR beats out his inhale if timed or spaced right like if you dash back or otherwise move away first. SPR also beats holding inhale as long as it starts outside the windbox.
Dedede has a total of 5 jumps, with 4 midair jumps. With how slow his airspeed is, one might think he would have slow fall speed too, but he actually has one of the fastest falling speeds in the game, so keep in mind.
Inhale is mashable, grounded Jet Hammer has 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not.
His u-smash and Jet Hammer (full charge) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Dedede multihits- F-tilt (4 hits), uair (8 hits)
Our jab 1 comes out before his, and his rapid jab finisher is skewer punishable. His smashes are super unsafe like the u-smash being -39, and all his grounded normals are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (104-107%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (108-116%)
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for much of this info.
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Slightly Winning
Gameplan
Belly Armor and it's Properties
Belly Armor is a special hurtbox that spawns during specific attacks that are available to King. K Rool. When it spawns, it will overtake any hitbox that overlaps it. However, it will only tank an attack if he is facing the opponent or a hitbox connects to the hurtbox. The armor will not tank unblockables, grabs, or hitgrabs. The armor has a 18.01 HP threshold, allowing K. Rool to take up to 36.02% damage. The damage of an attack is split in half between K. Rool and the armor's HP. Damage multipliers like the 1v1 multiplier and the freshness bonus or staleness penalty are calculated before the split. The armor regenerates 0.08 HP every 16 frames, or around 0.3 HP per second. If the HP was theoretically at 0, then it would take roughly around 60 seconds to regain belly armor.
- If belly armor is broken, he will be stunned, having the same effect as a shield break. But unlike shield breaks, King K. Rool will regain full shield and belly armor.
- Belly armor has a fixed 16 frames of hitlag if attacked. During hitlag King K. Rool can buffer an option (such as fast fall).
Attacks that have Belly Armor:
- Forward Tilt (frames 5-11)
- Dash Attack (frames 7-28)
- Up Smash (frames 6-19)
- Down Smash (frames 8-21)
- Neutral Air (frames 6-30)
- Up Air (frames 6-20)
- Down Air (frames 14-25)
- Side Taunt (frames 9-20)
Jack of Only Trades
King K. Rool is very reliant on belly armor to functionally work as a character. Without any armor his ability to get in becomes really difficult. Belly armor gives his mobility a threat it otherwise wouldn't. Creating a lot of respect that many players will have to come to terms with.
Most importantly, all of his aerial autocancel windows are way past their active frames. They cannot be autocanceled from short hop. Only NAir, FAir, and DAir can autocancel from a full hop. Also, besides NAir, his aerial's landing lag are in the double digits. However, landing with his aerials are safe against Ridley. For the most part, K. Rool is committed to his aerials especially if he wants to get something out of them.
With how safe his aerials can be, shielding isn't generally a good option. Since he can attack with a grounded attack, which can also have armor, to avoid reversals out of shield. Typically forcing a wait until he does something else on shield. This risks a grab, which will do more damage or net a kill than doing a raw attack. The best way to attack K. Rool and avoid getting a reversal by belly armor is to wait until he is about to land and then catch his landing. Or if he commits to a laggy option on the ground like a special or a dash attack.
Counterplay: Against Crownarang
King K. Rool's side special, Crownarang, is a very unique move. Having damage-based armor from frames 6 to 63 with the crown's hitbox being active from frame 27 until it reaches King K. Rool, lands on the ground, or disappears offstage. However, the damage-based armor is unique as its cumulative. Meaning even though the threshold is 12.0% base damage, each attack done against the armor reaches to it's threshold. The equation is as followed: (Base Damage of prior hits) * 1.2 + (Base Damage of the last hit) > 12%.
- Then what attacks will break the armor threshold?
- Sweetspot forward tilt (must be fresh)
- Side Smash
- Up Smash
- Down Smash
- Sweetspot neutral air (cannot use short hop macro, must be fresh)
- Backward air (can use short hop macro twice)
- Forward air with at least one sweetspot hit (can use short hop macro once)
- Sourspot up air (cannot use short hop macro, must be fresh)
- Sweetspot up air (can use short hop macro once)
- Sourspot down air (cannot use short hop macro, must be fresh)
- Sweetspot down air (can use short hop macro twice)
- Plasma Breath (with 3 or more plasma balls)
- Wing Blitz (all directions)
- Skewer
You can grab K Rool if you timely jump over the krown toss and he’s in end lag; you still have to worry about the returning krown, so timely use the invincibility frames on your d-throw animation to get past it, and pummel while waiting for krown to return before the d-throw. Alternatively, you can do a landing SPR if spaced right.
K Rool enters end lag if he grabs the krown back, and to avoid this he has to commit to a punishable option like an aerial, grab, spotdodge, sheild, etc; so you can wait and try to meet their pace. Roll is something he’ll commonly do to pick up the krown.
Unless K Rool is forced to land on stage with his up B, he has strong landing options due to little landing lag & his aerials with belly armor, plus side B & down B mixups; you don't want to force too many air-to-air interactions against him due to all this. With maybe the exception of using up smash, don’t try to punish those armored moves while he lands, but rather what he’ll do after. His shorthops you can still punish with Rid up angle f-tilt though.
Ridley gets more use out of plasma in this matchup than one would think. It outzones blunderbuss and can otherwise wall K Rool out, though krown toss mostly goes through plasma when active (3 fireballs on him preemptively will cancel the krown before it fully comes out though), so as usual, treat it as a neutral reset.
Advantage
Ridley can two frame King K. Rool with:
- Sourspot forward tilt
- Sweetspot forward tilt
- side smash
- down smash
- Sweetspot neutral air
- Sourspot down air
- Sweetspot down air
When he’s off stage, you have to properly wait out krown before you can throw out plasma. One thing K Rool’s do is recover close to ledge but throw krown last second and immediately use up B. In that case it’s best to just shield the krown toss completely and not try to commit to anything until after they’ve used it, just like how it leads to either a grab punish or neutral reset depending on the position he uses it. Basically, shielding it at max or mid distance means that it’s better to just reset, because their end lag will be done by the time you’re ready to run at them.
Ledgehop (or ledge drop double jump) krown toss is another thing they use to disrupt your ledge pressure. Waiting is good because the K Rool has to commit to an option to avoid krown catching lag, so they will always do something you can counter.
You can also get on ledge for invincibility frames against his anti-edgeguards such as krown toss, or punish his ledge re-grab since he has to do it after krown. Also watch out for ledge jump counter though during plasma charges. Our f/d-tilt & d-smash hit his ledge hang.
When edgeguarding, propeller moves him pretty fast, but slows down near the end.
For juggling, aside from what was mentioned on how to handle his landing armored moves (nair, etc), he’s still not too fast in the air, so abuse Ridley’s ground speed and u-tilt or nair to catch other landing attempts. Respect his dair though which also has belly armor and can lead into u-smash as a kill confirm. Dair is slow though, so either react or whiff punish the startup (14 frames).
Disadvantage
King K. Rool can two frame Ridley with:
- Down tilt - used to extend combos and gain percent. At high percents can be used for juggles to get a kill, will probably see forward tilt instead since it's quicker and stronger.
- Sweetspot forward tilt - a reliable kill option for King K. Rool. Somewhat quick, so waiting at ledge for too long can prompt this move to come out.
- Sweetspot backward air - stronger than down air, but less reliable and harder to set up.
- Down air - very easy to two frame. Is very active and can spike out of short hop. Watch out recoverying with up special as down air can go through it.
The suction ledgetrapping is mostly fake, in that if he holds neutral B right at ledge, can ledge getup attack, and if he does suction just beyond ledge getup attack range, can ledge jump wisely.
Same for when he does krown to ledgetrap, in which you ledge jump to get behind him. Otherwise wait out the krown or d-smash at ledge since if you shield krown on the way back, he can grab you. When being edgeguarded, try to tech his nair with the bad angle it sends you, and otherwise mixup or delay your recovery timings.
With landing against K Rool, while he doesn’t really juggle, he can catch landings & send you back off stage, abuse uair, or try to make you mis-space a landing aerial so he can get a grab. Suffice to say, avoid landing on top of him, and abuse jumps & spaced bair to properly land, hopefully not getting hit by his fair. Sometimes going to ledge is necessary though to avoid a worse case scenario attempt at landing (getting hit by his f-tilt or dash attack that have belly armor, etc).
Miscellaneous and frame data
Dash attack will beat King K. Rool's shorthop if spaced.
Krown has so much end lag that you can run over it and SPR him, and then jump release it before the krown comes back.
In a situation where both you and the K Rool are at high % and you do a Wing Blitz forward trade in exchange for getting hit by krown toss on the way back, getting hit by it knocks you upward in the air a bit, putting you in a position to dair him off stage when he uses his jump.
K Rool has intangibility with u-tilt like Ridley (in Rool’s case on the arm), and on the head during u-smash and uair, so don’t try landing on him at all. Also, his d-tilt can hit us when we’re under platforms, so still shield or avoid there.
With krown as an item, Ridley can forward toss it, fair, and catch the krown while shield poking. If K Rool uses krown toss nearby in neutral, retreating nair (sweetspot) should be able to break the armor since it's 12%.
SDI against his up B when he uses propeller against you offensively to KO you into the upper blast zone (specifically, it requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's). Likewise, when K Rool does an up throw after blunderbuss suction, expect a possible up B and SDI to avoid getting pushed into the upper blast zone.
His dash attack, smashes, fair, uair, and dair are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
K Rool's normals can be punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, and like Bowser or Wario, his dash attack and smashes are unsafe on shield enough to be punished by Rid f-smash (turnaround f-smash or shorthop skewer OoS if his dash attack crosses up) and u-smash OoS. Watch out for the shield damage that his d-smash causes though, and his landing aerials are too safe on shield, so reset there.
Jab 2/3, crossup dash attack, u-tilt, smashes, & ledge getup attack are also shield punished by u-tilt. His up smash is even shield punished by skewer with how minus it is and amount of end lag it has, and if he whiffs a gut check counter nearby, whiff punishing with skewer becomes easier the more you do it.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (107-112%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (113-127%)
Credit to the old Ridley JMU doc for a certain chunk of this info, credit to smub on some of the details on neutral and advantage state, and to Zeta on the Wing Blitz and krown toss trade scenario.
https://x.com/5atez/status/1855030959558869353?s=46&t=NvvvokY_NM2udMgu8BGKVQ
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Even
A good player will mainly only use Stone to edgeguard off stage with, as it has armor now. He can also do so with his multi-jumps and fair's etc, but aside from the usual recovery tactics, can DI away when combo'd off stage.
The neutral consists of bait & punish + combos. Since he struggles to approach, he'll float near or crouch next to you to bait a whiff. His ground and air speed are opposite of Jigglypuff (and much worse jump height), so he has to rely more on his patience and size; playing more grounded to use your size against you. As a floaty you have to circle around him more quickly than Puff.
Respect his tilts, particularly with how fast and safe they are at shield pressure and setting up into combos. His fiery dash attack's also quick and powerful, so watch out when landing.
He has a good grab game. His f-throw leads into combos, b-throw can kill at ledge, and u-throw can kill a little later.
If he gets you with inhale copy, just have to use your neutral B knowledge to out-plasma him. Also don't let him gimp you with an off stage inhale.
His up B he'll use on stage to cut off your approach from the air like if you jump predictably, and then projectile during landing. If you bait it out, dodge and punish in between.
Miscellaneous and frame data
His u-tilt, u-smash, and d-smash have feet intangibility.
His d-smash, dair, and Stone hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid.
Has a 3-hit fair and 6-hit dair.
Kirby dair requires about 2 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. What's more, Kirby up B hits require about 2 SDI inputs, each of which have 8 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Kirby’s and by extension Dedede’s inhale is mashable. Drift back fair after mashing out of Kirby’s since he can confirm footstool on neutral or DI in & can punish mash out jump nair with his fair for some reason.
Use retreating nair for neutralizing more of their specials.
Kirby has a total of 6 jumps, with 5 midair jumps.
The Hammer Flip side B has super armor on the ground when fully charged.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair. We can also hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer bypasses Stone armor. Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His rapid jab finisher is f-smash punishable; as is dash attack, but it crosses up shield, so be ready to turnaround f-smash. His d-smash is shorthop skewer OoS punishable. Normals are too safe besides those and smashes, and landing aerials too safe besides dair. Side B is -26 to -18, and up B is -21. Although Stone is very minus (even punished by shield drop > d-smash), Stone does too much shield damage to usually be worth it.
His rapid jab finisher, dash attack, smashes, up B, and ledge getup attack (-26) are u-tilt shield punished.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (76-79%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (80-91%)
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Even
Gameplan
All of Link's projectile attacks: Bow and Arrows, Boomerang, and Remote Bomb start with an animation of Link sheathing his sword pulling out a projectile. Besides up taunt, these are the only times he puts his sword away. Use this to your advantage as a way to visually expect an incoming projectile.
- If you see Link put away his sword typically always expect Boomerang at middle to close range. Visually the boomerang on side special comes out frame 5, but is hidden from view if Link is facing to the right side, get familiar with Link's startup pose to punish the move even quicker on reaction, as it has 27 frames of start up and loses to disjoints. If you are unsure that you can punish Boomerang get into a position to parry it as it'll give you a frame advantage over Link and will send the boomerang back to Link.
- Bomb pull from down special takes 39 frames to finish, so if you are trying to play at mid range do not expect a Link player to use this move. The arrow of neutral special comes out frame 16, but is negative on hit with no charge, so do not expect a Link player to use this one either.
Link's three main moves to watch out for in neutral are nair, boomerang, and remote bomb. Nair has a big hitbox, active for 24 frames, 7 frames of cooldown, and is -2 on shield. The first goal is understanding how the Link uses nair, not just in neutral but during his advantage time as well. Up angle f-tilt, dash back f-tilt, and u-tilt are some ways of beating his nair, but mainly for rising shorthop ones. Against nair's above us, ours should beat it out if timed well.
Link's ledgetrapping revolves around nair, but also a combination of bombs and f-tilt. F-tilt covers something like ledge roll, while the bomb bouncing covers everything else. There's always ledge jump and Z-catching the bomb though.
When you're in advantage, Link's bomb leads into jablocks on missed techs. Experiment with it and see what you can do. Also of note, when edgeguarding, Ridley f-smash makes the bomb detonate prematurely which can be used against a recovering Link. Speaking of, Link's recovery is solid due to bomb mixups, so you can either respect it or vs him head-on before he techs the stage. If you get him to use up his 2nd jump due to plasma or something, always expect him to bomb himself back toward stage.
If Link doesn't have a bomb in his hands, you can most likely bait up B OoS; mind your spacing. Dealing with his projectiles otherwise is all about patience, timing, and lots of nairs. Familiarize yourself with the Link's habits and timing so you can accurately anticipate when they'll throw out their arrows and boomerangs. When our nair first comes out (at a 45 angle degree downward), it's where you'll want to position yourself to intercept Link's projectiles where Ridley nair is first active.
Plasma also helps in detonating a remote bomb prematurely, though don't be afraid to hold it because he can't set it off when it's in your possession, and when you get accustomed to Z-dropping it, can confirm into a number of our attacks. Our best moves for catching items like bombs are nair (retreating and OoS nair included), f-tilt (can pivot cancel too and still catch an item), and dash attack.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Respect his ledge getup attack range.
His f-smash 2 and up B (grounded or landing) are whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 comes out faster than his, so always use when in close range. His grounded normals are punished by our nair OoS at least. His landing aerials besides dair are too safe though, so reset there. His arrow can be from -21 to -15, making it punishable on shield at point-blank like with Young Link but even more so here. The boomerang is stuff safe though but his grounded up B (not a multi-hit) is -56.
His jab 3, dash attack, f-smash 1/2, u-smash, d-smash 2, up B, remote bomb if it detonates when he's nearby, and ledge getup attack (-26) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (91-94%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (95-105%)
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Gameplan
Mac plays a slow neutral, and so must you. You generally only have to win neutral once to convert into a stock though because of how abusable Mac's recovery is, so there’s no hurry in winning the exchange. Abuse your range advantage, but keep button count low. Mac’s high priority moves love people who push lots of buttons.
Mac is Dedede levels when it comes to lack of shield safety if not worse, so you can let OoS punishing be a big part of your neutral if anything. Aside from walling Mac out during the moments you know you can, resort to OoS punishing even if you have to walk or dash shield; not only because of his lack of shield safety, but to decrease instances where he wins clank interactions due to the damage based armor of his neutral B or the super armor of his smashes. The exception of course is when he has KO Punch but we usually have an easier time preventing it from hitting unless we get careless.
Plasma is good, but Mac is fast and his low run can make plasma go right over him, so be careful and mostly use at longer ranges when Mac is refusing to move in.
Mac has very limited options to deal with platform camping, as you only have to really watch out for shorthop side B and up smash on lower plats, and Sometimes up B or fullhop side B on higher ones. Counter can go through plasma if you’re doing it too close or too often, so keep in mind.
Disadvantage
Ledge is probably the scariest position to be in. Mac has very good moves to hit Ridley on ledge such as d-smash and d-tilt, and they only require very basic spacing. Armor on smash attacks means you can’t use getup attack to stop charging most of the time (unless the Mac has bad reactions), but this does open up drop down SPR's utility. Just be mindful of getting smacked before it connects. Ledge jump is a pretty good option here, since Mac lacks good aerials but u-smash and up B can catch you if you’re getting predictable.
Off stage is only a problem in two scenarios, getting countered or getting side B'd. Mac should basically never attempt to jump off and aerial you; if he does he’s either flexing or taking the one in a million chance. His counter is a little slow on the attack part, so grabbing ledge before you get hit is a bit more forgiving. Counter can be avoided like most others, either through up B wall bounce, or tricky spacing.
Remember that since Mac’s recovery is bad, he’s pretty restricted when it comes to using his counter; if he uses it too low he’ll just die, or if he gets sent under the stage he may just die. Side B should only be a problem in last stock situations or if you are using SPR to grab ledge too often.
Like Ganondorf and such, Mac doesn't juggle so much as he catches landings. Watch what the Mac likes to do when you’re trying to land; if they favor up smashes or tilts, abuse jumps and trick them into a whiff that you punish with SPR or an aerial. If they run and shield to catch your landings, mix up spaced bairs and tomahawk grabs (sometimes even SPR). Mac is fast and has pretty low FAF's (first actionable frames), so airdodges are only sometimes useful; don’t abuse them and use carefully. If platforms are available they can be a safe spot to land, but be mindful if Mac can reach them or not.
When getting hit in general, jumping away can be a consistently good means of escaping further disadvantage with how poorly designed Mac's jump and aerials are. Not to say jumping out of disadvantage should be a general habit, just that you can get away with it more in this matchup.
Advantage
Mac on ledge has two unique options to look out for; ledge jump instant counter which puts him on the stage, and ledge drop side B. Counter is dealt with as you’d except, with grabs or waiting it out. They’ll usually do this if you’re attempting to read their getup timings and are pushing buttons too often. Ledge drop side B would be used as a punish to whiffed attempts at catching their getup or as a quick surprise option, either out-space with a tilt or shield and punish. Other then that, it’s just like a regular character except you may have to worry about ledge jump a little less. Just focus on getting Mac back off the stage, that’s all you need.
Off stage is Mac's worst form of disadvantage, but don't get too cocky. Good Macs won't just give it to you. Mac doesn’t get to use side B again even if you hit him. Plasma is often the only answer you need, but Mac’s can recover high or use up B's hitboxes to beat it. They can even counter the plasma if they get close enough. This is perhaps the scariest option as it makes you lose the ledge and puts them in advantage. If Mac chooses to recover low and you didn’t plasma, you can intercept with fastfall nair quite reliably, or even fullhop dair if you’re on the right stage (Smashville, Town & City, Yoshi's Story, Lylat, and Kalos you have to double jump to make it back). If they recover high, you wait for their side B or airdodge, and then punish with something that sends them back off the stage (any of our main aerials).
Trying to land is also pretty rough for Mac. He has virtually no landing aerials and was designed to have the worst airdodge in the game. Watch for counter though, but charged up smash and SPR do a good enough job of dealing with it. Mac's Neutral B can be a decent mixup for landing because of the armor (9.6% threshold without being charged), but this will only really affect up tilt, as everything else does too much damage. Up tilt is otherwise good when it comes to keeping Mac airborne, as he doesn’t have much in terms of challenging it and counter will likely miss you if he uses it. SPR can prove to be good for catching his landings too, as it beats counter and airdodge or shields, and if you land it, that’s a free edgeguard state. Just don't use it carelessly.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Mac nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 6 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
Mac side B up close crosses up on our shield, so may need to do a turnaround punish, but it's still -36 to -39.
His KO Punch is whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward or anything in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
While not particularly strong, his dair can hit us under plats, so still shield or avoid there.
Aside from super armor on his smashes & KO Uppercut and intangibility on his grounded side B, Mac's neutral B has 8% worth of armor when charging, and 14% worth of armor on release. Something like our bair may beat the latter, but f-tilt even with sweetspot will not.
His rapid jab finisher is punished by shorthop SPR OoS, while his grounded normals are punished by our OoS aerials and such. His landing aerials besides bair and dair are too safe on shield though, so reset there. His specials are especially unsafe, with full charged neutral B being -82 and side B being -39 to -36. If he whiffs a slip counter nearby, skewer punish.
His jab 3, rapid jab finisher, u-smash, neutral B (regardless of charge), and side B are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (82-85%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (86-95%)
Major credit to the Ridcord JMU doc for a good chunk of this info.
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Will usually want to KO him asap because of aura. He has good juggling, especially without much aura where uair combos into itself a number of times. Either airdodge through or DI/SDI upward. May be able to nair diagonally above them too.
Respect the force palm side B, the only special in the game that functions as both a projectile and a command grab. If you're far away, then shielding is good, but if you're up close, then shielding is bad for more than one reason, especially if they have high aura. Also don't hold shield when at ledge, lest he lands on you from off stage with side B.
Aura Sphere can hit at ledge, so don't sit there too long, especially as it gets bigger with aura + charge. Also remember his double team counter which also works on projectiles like plasma, especially at high aura. Watch how they use it in disadvantage.
Their recovery has more distance the more aura they have, but it goes so fast and can be tricky to control, that it becomes more inconsistent with more aura. So when they're at high %, they'll rarely grab onto the ledge, and instead land on stage, or use extreme speed against you offensively when possible. Shield if you anticipate the latter and punish. Their up B also goes through platforms, so respect it on plat stages all the same.
On the flipside, aura makes Lucario's combos inconsistent. Their specials and frame data also lack consistency, making them drop combos and miss killing attacks.
Miscellaneous and frame data
SPR Lucario on plats if worried about him double team countering our attacks from underneath (i.e. u-tilt).
Lucario force palm (grab version) is mashable.
When Lucario lands on stage with up B, they have little lag, so if not on stage yet, don't be baited into attacking them from ledge.
Lucario multihits- f-tilt (2 hits), nair (2 hits), dair (2 hits)
His u-smash, d-smash, bair, and Force Palm are mostly whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward in terms of end lag.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > jab 2 > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
Our jab 1 starts faster than theirs, allowing us to get out of scramble situations better.
The shield safety of their moves depends on their aura (see UFD for more), but their d-tilt and landing aerials will always be too safe, so reset there. Also his dash attack will likely crossup on shield, so be ready for a turnaround punish. His u-smash can be shield punished by f-smash regardless of aura.
Their jab 3, dash attack, smashes, up B, and ledge getup attack (-28) are shield punished by u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %. If he whiffs a double team counter nearby, skewer punish.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (85-88%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (89-100%)
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Slightly Losing
The main differences Lucas has from Ness are PK freeze (respect it when recovering, pay attention to how he uses it, and mixup your timing and recovery paths/tactics), his PK thunder being a multi-hit with intangible properties but is slower than Ness’s (avoid it when possible and try to tech when hit by it), and his PK fire being knockback-based rather than something to DI/SDI out of as well as the aerial version shooting straight across instead of diagonally down, which sends Lucas back a little as he uses it, making it pretty safe. Also his bair being a spike move (tech it on stage), and both his back and up throws being good kill throws. Aside from his f-smash reflecting like Ness's, also respect the strength and invincibility of his u-smash.
One thing Ridley players don't like is to approach by air, but against Lucas that's a good way to pressure him. Our uair combos into itself, but doesn't have good horizontal range and doesn't kill when staled as such.
He has a lot of Ness weaknesses to be aware of, like how hard it is for him to land against disjointed range. He’s better at covering himself off stage than Ness, but is still very exploitable.
Most Lucas players will opt for stalling with their double jump for a bit before tethering to the ledge. Once you have them out there with no jump, you can chase them as far as you want as they try to position for up B.
The rest of the neutral’s just playing the slow wall out game while respecting his projectiles/zair.
Miscellaneous and frame data
Dash attack will beat Lucas' shorthop if spaced.
Lucas d-smash and dair hit us under platforms, so still shield or avoid there.
Lucas multihits- d-smash (3 hits), nair (4 hits), PK Thunder self-hit (12 hits)
Lucas nair requires 2 SDI inputs, which has 3 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's. PK thunder requires about 3 SDI inputs, which has 4 hitlag frames for you to perform said SDI's.
This character can consistently airdodge over ledge after getting ledge trumped, so may be best to do ledge trump > drop ledge > double jump to stage + falling bair.
We can hit their ledge hang with dair, in the case of ledgetrump > ledgejump + dair.
Skewer > d-tilt > insert followup here, for covering delayed getup.
His normals besides d-tilt and f-tilt are mostly punished by our OoS aerials and shield grab, while his u-smash when shielded is punished by whatever (is -54 on shield and whiff punished by Wing Blitz forward, etc). His landing aerials besides the 4-hit dair (can punish with u-smash) are too safe on shield though, so reset there. PK freeze is mostly safe on shield, as is magnet, but PK fire and thunder up close are about as unsafe on shield as Ness's.
PK Fire and Thunder are also minus on shield enough for you to dash grab or dash attack if he's nearby (same with extended dash cancel u-tilt if he's at kill confirm %). Just don't shield too much or obviously against them to where he can grab you.
Speaking of, his tether grab is 12 frames in startup and 29 in end lag. While a bit faster in startup than some other tethers, it's the shortest in range and can still be whiff punished with SPR and the like. Zair's 30 frames of end lag allows you to SPR after if you were stuffed out by it before. Mainly zair from a fullhop, as shorthop zair would cancel the end lag when they go to ground. Also, mix in shield jumping, particularly Double Shield Cancel fullhop, to whiff punish such a grab.
His jab 3, f-smash, u-smash, PK fire, PK thunder, and ledge getup attack are also shield punishable with u-tilt should he be at u-tilt > uair kill %.
Ridley kill confirm:
- u-tilt > fullhop uair (86-89%)
- u-tilt > double jump uair (90-100%)
Credit to smub for some of the tips on neutral.
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Gameplan
Ridley's f-tilt is a very good tool in neutral, as it out-spaces mostly everything Lucina has. Should be abusing this tool most. Up angle f-tilt is good for punishing shorthop which swordies loves doing. Your goal should be getting her off stage and recovering low. She'll be looking for whiff punishes in this, so be careful about your button presses. Run or pivot cancel f-tilt reaches far and fast, so they have a good whiff punish range. Abuse dance dancing and walking to bait shorthops or dash-in's. Keep their shorthop approaches locked down w